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Best Combat Pump?
- Thread starter Panzerschwein
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Um, okay yes. For a lengthier, more detailed background and reasoning behind phasing out the auto sear on more recent issue shotguns, it might be a perfect time to write Santa and mention ISBN 978-0686737896.
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Panzerschwein
member
Um, okay yes. For a lengthier, more detailed background and reasoning behind phasing out the auto sear on more recent issue shotguns, it might be a perfect time to write Santa and mention ISBN 978-0686737896.
Got it, just have never heard that before. My apologies.
Ithaca 37 from Ohio. I like the Hogslayer they made for Academy Sports I think.
expat_alaska
Member
Wow! With an apparent 8-shot mag tube, 20"+ barrel, barrel shroud, 6-shot sidesaddle, and flashlight fore end it must be light as a feather.
I would not want to lug that around in a combat situation.
Not trying to be a jerk, but I went that same route long ago: I once had an 870 w/19" VR barrel, a 2-shot Choate mag tube extension, a 6-shot sidesaddle, and a 5-shot buttstock shell holder with plastic stock/fore end and it all weighed over 13 lbs. loaded for bear. Neat BBQ guns that show well but not so practical.
Maybe OK for HD but after I got it all installed I gave up on the sidesaddle and the buttstock shell carriers, and went back to the wood furniture (better drop at the heel 2-3/8": my old skeet gun). Better balance, maneuverability, and less weight. I do not have an old picture to post.
I still have fondness for the Savage 69RXL, nice and light, an extended mag tube, and inexpensive in the day. It performed well in the latter days of the Viet Nam "conflict".
And it has real wood furniture.
Just my $.02 worth.
Jim
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WrongHanded
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Wow! With an apparent 8-shot mag tube, 20"+ barrel, barrel shroud, 6-shot sidesaddle, and flashlight fore end it must be light as a feather.
I would not want to lug that around in a combat situation.
Well I suppose that depends on what scenario you're looking at. The purpose of that shotgun is home defense. But I don't care how light and sleek the shotgun is, the ammo in heavy. So I wouldn't particularly want to lug around ANY shotgun in a combat situation that involved much foot travel.
expat_alaska
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lemaymiami
Member
My shotgun was never a "combat pump" but I always had one on the street in my hands whenever weapons were even possible for just about 22 years down here in paradise (Dade county - now called Metro-Dade county in south Florida...). Each day as a young cop I had my choice of either Mossberg or Remington - and I always chose the Remington since I preferred the safety on them. The big difference in my opinion between how we used shotguns on the street and how they'd be employed in combat is that while both were for close quarters work - in my case I had to be absolutely certain that I never had an unintentional discharge (though I pointed a shotgun at many, many live targets - I only fired it once in 22 years...). I was always worried with a Mossberg that under extreme stress and with lots of physical exertion I might accidentally clear that thumb operated safety - where with the Remington that simply could never happen... All these poppers were rack grade at best (badly abused almost 24-7 during their entire life spans) but still utterly reliable (except for that safety issue - but I must say that I never heard of anyone with an accidental discharge with a Mossberg, I was always concerned about even the possibility...).
When I finally got my first promotion I was issued a particular shotgun and it stayed with me for the remainder of my career. It was a standard four shot Wingmaster with a simple bead sight - but unlike most that I was familiar with -it had a 20" barrel and was in almost new condition when I received it. That was one shotgun I'd have paid good money for if my department had allowed me to purchase it when I retired - but it was never allowed at the time. I still have the model 10, heavy barrel .38 I was first issued at the end of 1973 (we were allowed to purchase one sidearm for exactly $1.00) - but I'd have gladly bought the shotgun instead...
Yes, there's an ongoing interest in old military shotguns - but I have to say that as much as I preferred the shotgun in police work I'd never have chosen it when I was in the service... Modern military weapons are far superior (except maybe at bad breath ranges...).
When I finally got my first promotion I was issued a particular shotgun and it stayed with me for the remainder of my career. It was a standard four shot Wingmaster with a simple bead sight - but unlike most that I was familiar with -it had a 20" barrel and was in almost new condition when I received it. That was one shotgun I'd have paid good money for if my department had allowed me to purchase it when I retired - but it was never allowed at the time. I still have the model 10, heavy barrel .38 I was first issued at the end of 1973 (we were allowed to purchase one sidearm for exactly $1.00) - but I'd have gladly bought the shotgun instead...
Yes, there's an ongoing interest in old military shotguns - but I have to say that as much as I preferred the shotgun in police work I'd never have chosen it when I was in the service... Modern military weapons are far superior (except maybe at bad breath ranges...).
dfariswheel
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Most any pump shotgun, even cheap Chinese guns will serve well as a home defense gun.
However, going on what is the "best"........
A key to durability, reliability. longevity, and being able to stand up to the Night Watch version of "Hold my beer and watch this" is that no shotgun design made since 1950 can beat the Remington 870P Police shotgun.
Still today, something like 95% of all law enforcement; local, state, and federal all use the 870P Police gun.
This is not because the gun is cheaper or that departments get a better price then other makes, they don't.
It's not possible to make a forged and milled steel gun with heavy duty internals as cheap as you can make a cast aluminum and stamped internals gun.
This is the reason the Mossberg 590 won the government contract. No matter what, they were going to get the contract because they could make the gun cheaper then Remington could.
Nothing in the contract was a test to find the "best" gun, it was simply that if your gun could pass a basic test you could bid on the contract.
Since almost any shotgun could pass the test and could submit a bid, Mossberg was going to get it.
The 870P Police is the pump gun that all others are judged by and few equal.
As example, really heavy shotgun shooters who shoot clay birds will tell you that an aluminum pump gun will start to develop cracks in the receiver and begin having broken parts somewhere less then 70,000 rounds.
The 870 will begin developing cracks around the ejection port somewhere around 250,000 rounds.
So, if you really want the best and can afford it, buy a Remington Police model.
However, going on what is the "best"........
A key to durability, reliability. longevity, and being able to stand up to the Night Watch version of "Hold my beer and watch this" is that no shotgun design made since 1950 can beat the Remington 870P Police shotgun.
Still today, something like 95% of all law enforcement; local, state, and federal all use the 870P Police gun.
This is not because the gun is cheaper or that departments get a better price then other makes, they don't.
It's not possible to make a forged and milled steel gun with heavy duty internals as cheap as you can make a cast aluminum and stamped internals gun.
This is the reason the Mossberg 590 won the government contract. No matter what, they were going to get the contract because they could make the gun cheaper then Remington could.
Nothing in the contract was a test to find the "best" gun, it was simply that if your gun could pass a basic test you could bid on the contract.
Since almost any shotgun could pass the test and could submit a bid, Mossberg was going to get it.
The 870P Police is the pump gun that all others are judged by and few equal.
As example, really heavy shotgun shooters who shoot clay birds will tell you that an aluminum pump gun will start to develop cracks in the receiver and begin having broken parts somewhere less then 70,000 rounds.
The 870 will begin developing cracks around the ejection port somewhere around 250,000 rounds.
So, if you really want the best and can afford it, buy a Remington Police model.
I agree 100% with this, it's not that there is anything wrong with Mossbergs or other pump shotguns, it's whether you want the guns to be handed down to your great grandkids with your Mossberg or your great-great-great grandkids in the case of and 870.
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Panzerschwein
member
I've an 870P with 4 shot magazine and bead sight, synthetic stock. It has been superb. But personally I much prefer the Mossberg loading mechanism where the ejector stay up out of the way. I also like the safety and slide release locations a touch better. Neither ones fit me worth a darn with the factory stocks, seems both the 870P and Mossbergs have a long length of pull.
Youngster
Member
The lesser longevity on the aluminum receiver pumps could be due to what's probably a lower grade of aluminum used by Mossberg and other budget oriented brands.
Certainly Benelli semiautos don't seem to have issues standing up to huge shot counts.
lemaymiami
Member
Something to note about the 870P model shotgun... It didn't come along until I was out of police work(or at least my agency never purchased one - basic Wingmasters last forever....)... In my era (1973 -1995) all we ever had were simple, basic 870 Wingmasters.... I'm betting the "P" model incorporated a slight improvement here or there -but for many years all law enforcement had were the standard Wingmasters....
Kookla
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I'm sure that the longevity comes down to the design. The 870 was designed to have a steel receiver, benelli's are designed to have an aluminum one.
mgmorden
Member
Yes but the Mossberg was designed to have an aluminum receiver too.
Realistically though (and I say this as an avid 870 fan) - even given the numbers stated above - Mossberg failure at 70,000 rounds and Remington at 250,000. Nobody is going to shoot that much in combat or just regular run of the mill shooting. That type of round count is only going to be achieved by people doing significant target shooting.
This is besides the fact that 70,000 rounds is around 2,800 boxes of ammo. If we're REALLY generous and say $3 per box then we're talking $8,400 worth of ammo through a ~$300 gun. With that kind of volume the gun itself is just a cheap replaceable wear item.
Kookla
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True. I know a lot of high round counts on shotguns are with light target loads. Wonder how some would hold up to high counts of buck and slug? Wonder what shooter could hold up to that?
If1HitU
Member
I like the Mossberg 590,my choice.
lemaymiami
Member
Had to laugh about "high round count with buckshot" since I'm pretty sure that would be a very rare proposition... In fact most of the beat up old rack grade riot guns I've handled - had very little actual range time... The horrible treatment they got was from being placed in some kind of locking arrangement in a patrol car for a shift - then being jerked out and turned in at shift's end, 24-7 - in all kinds of weather. Weapons kept in a vehicle's trunk were similarly abused. Most of those same poppers were only taken to the range at odd intervals unless it was qualification time... so no matter how bad they looked on the outside they were mechanically sound and had very little actual use....
As much as I prefer the shotgun for close quarters work - I don't think I'd enjoy cranking off a lot of 00buck rounds day after day with it (unless it was stark necessity...).
As much as I prefer the shotgun for close quarters work - I don't think I'd enjoy cranking off a lot of 00buck rounds day after day with it (unless it was stark necessity...).
WestKentucky
Member
I keep telling my wife that the gun itself is merely the launcher of the ammo, and should be as nice as possible since it will be used thousands upon thousands of times before it is worn out. She just stares at me and goes to buy a purse or shoes.
JeffG
Member
Mossberg 590.
JeeperCreeper
Member
Whatever is cheapest on the market.
I got a Stevens 320 for less than a hundred so it's my go-to before my mossy or remmy
I got a Stevens 320 for less than a hundred so it's my go-to before my mossy or remmy
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