I will soon have to choose between a .32acp, 380, or 38 Special (2") for CCW in Ohio. I will be taking the NRA course this weekend to meet the training requirements. The "best" personal defense ammo will be used in each caliber. Carry comfort is important so I'm leaning towards a lean and mean Kel tech 32 or 380 (cord around the neck carry?). I already have a German made PPK, Kel-Tech P-11, S&W36(2"),and Colt Cobra .38(2"). I like my P-11 with its small size and powerful 9mm luger round but the Kel-tech 32acp and .380 models sure look attractive. With the new high performance self-defense ammo available it seems that even the 32acp can be a reliable "stopper". Expert input requested, the life you save may be mine.
Best stopping power
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Devonai
Member
The best .38 Special loads will beat the best .380 ACP loads. The .32 doesn't come close to either. Personally I would take a S&W Airweight with the snappiest load I can shoot well, which for me happens to be the .38 158 grain LSWCHP +P.
gabeodog
Member
Best stopping power. Shot placment.
Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
telewinz,
I'm one of the "no handgun possesses reliable stopping power" club.
Out of the one's you mentioned, I'd carry a Keltec P3AT, simply because I can carry anywhere, all the time with the right holster.
Test your carry ammo with soaked newsprint and check expansion. I don't expect much expansion from .32's or .380's but I've been wrong before.
I saw a guy in the ER recently who was shot in the mouth by a .32. It knocked one of his front teeth out and the bullet was recovered lying on the floor a foot or so from his tooth. On the other hand, I've had a man shot with a .32 in my ER who was stone cold dead.
All handguns, handgun calibers, and handgun bulllets involve tradeoffs. Study the tradeoffs and decide what's right for you.
Oh, yeah. Work on changing Ohio's CCW law to get rid of that clause tying the CCW to a particular handgun. Can you qualify on more than one?
I'm one of the "no handgun possesses reliable stopping power" club.
Out of the one's you mentioned, I'd carry a Keltec P3AT, simply because I can carry anywhere, all the time with the right holster.
Test your carry ammo with soaked newsprint and check expansion. I don't expect much expansion from .32's or .380's but I've been wrong before.
I saw a guy in the ER recently who was shot in the mouth by a .32. It knocked one of his front teeth out and the bullet was recovered lying on the floor a foot or so from his tooth. On the other hand, I've had a man shot with a .32 in my ER who was stone cold dead.
All handguns, handgun calibers, and handgun bulllets involve tradeoffs. Study the tradeoffs and decide what's right for you.
Oh, yeah. Work on changing Ohio's CCW law to get rid of that clause tying the CCW to a particular handgun. Can you qualify on more than one?
SMLE
Member
Of the 3 options you list, I too go with the .38 Spec. The little Colt is a good choice in that caliber. I have owned several over the years and loved them.
I've been actively shooting handguns for over 25 years and I could qualify with any mentioned above. The only thing I haven't paid much attention to are the "new" ammunition developements in self-defense. The Keltec P3AT (I presently don't own) seems to be a great choice IF effective ammunition is already being produced, otherwise I'll go with the Keltec P-11. Is there a 32acp or 380 acp round deemed at least 50% effective (1 shot) in put downs?
sm
member
I would choose the one you shot best, afforded quick accurate shots. Though I do not have to list my carry guns , we do have a stipulation. That being if one qualifies with a semi they may carry a semi or revolver. If qual with revo only, they may not CCW a Semi. I don't know if that applies to you, just wanted to throw that out.
I prefer to carry a full size 1911 or K frame. I do use a Keltec P-11 , quite a bit. I can conceal it most anywear/anytime. It fits a "niche" for me. I do use a J frame sometimes, admittedly the Keltec gets used more.
I used to work in a main OR. Like Byron Quick I have seen the 22short kill and the guy whom used a .357 on himself survive...gonna need some teeth, some palate work and nose job, some serious "getting his head straight"...but still breathing.
I prefer to carry a full size 1911 or K frame. I do use a Keltec P-11 , quite a bit. I can conceal it most anywear/anytime. It fits a "niche" for me. I do use a J frame sometimes, admittedly the Keltec gets used more.
I used to work in a main OR. Like Byron Quick I have seen the 22short kill and the guy whom used a .357 on himself survive...gonna need some teeth, some palate work and nose job, some serious "getting his head straight"...but still breathing.
This is going to sound kind of harsh, but of the three choices you list it probably doesn't matter all that much. Self defense is more about attitude than equipment and the attitude you display with this post is that you are more interested in saying you are armed, while maintaining your comfort, than in actually being armed. If you have a 9mm available as small and light as the P-11, yet you want smaller and lighter, the caliber of the smaller gun doesn't make much difference.
Preacherman
Member
I'd say you already own two good choices. If your P11 is reliable with your chosen defensive ammunition, that would be my first choice: second choice would be the Colt Cobra. Both are small enough for pocket carry, using a good pocket holster, which means you can conceal them in almost any clothing.
Swamprabbit
Member
Ditto to KY Larry. There really isn't that much difference in the calibers in terms of stopping power. I, too, list myself among those who really don't place handguns in the category of reliable "one shot stoppers" but reliability and ease of use DOES count.
fix
Member
I hope you're joking.
Joe Demko
Member
Your idea of concealable in a pocket and mine differ considerably. I have a P-11 and a Don Hume pocket holster. I'm sorry, but the package is too big for pocket carry in all but the very loosest of clothes. It fingerprints madly and is rather bulkily uncomfortable. For light summertime clothing it is completely out of the question. The KelTec is small and light for its caliber, but it is far from a pocket gun IMO.
If telewinz doesn't mind doing a certain amount of dressing around the gun, the p-11 or the Colt .38 would be my first choices. IWB is going to be the way to go, may want to look into one of the Thunderwear type holsters, too. If not, one of the smaller Keltecs and a pocket holster would seem to be the default.
Cogar
Member
The .38 special with +P ammo should have the most stopping power statistically. Now the question is, will a revolver's bulk keep you from carrying all the time? If that were the case, a small auto would be better, since you would at least have it.
Snowdog
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Before the K9 came along, I carried my M85CH .38special every day of the week with no concerns. Now I have reached CCW zen with my K9 and won't bother myself with thoughts of any other pistol or caliber (unless one day my K9 is reclaimed by the heavens).
Of the choices you listed, I vote solidly in favor of the .38special snub. This caliber/platform has been protecting lives for decades and modern ammunition certainly makes it that much more attractive.
Just yesterday I tested Winchester's 110gr +P+ .38special Ranger from my Taurus M85 and found the results quite pleasing (and reassuring).
This semi-jacketed load does expand picture perfect from a 2" tube after 4 layers of denim, offers decent penetration, yet doesn't seem to recoil much more than my usual 158gr SWCHP fodder.
Ranger 110gr +P+ after 4 layers of denim (shown with 158gr SWCHP+P after identical test for comparison). Both will do nicely for defense.
In terms of ballistic performance, I would put this load from a snub well ahead of any .32acp or .380acp offering.
As long as you're proficient, carry the snub with confidence!
Of the choices you listed, I vote solidly in favor of the .38special snub. This caliber/platform has been protecting lives for decades and modern ammunition certainly makes it that much more attractive.
Just yesterday I tested Winchester's 110gr +P+ .38special Ranger from my Taurus M85 and found the results quite pleasing (and reassuring).
This semi-jacketed load does expand picture perfect from a 2" tube after 4 layers of denim, offers decent penetration, yet doesn't seem to recoil much more than my usual 158gr SWCHP fodder.
Ranger 110gr +P+ after 4 layers of denim (shown with 158gr SWCHP+P after identical test for comparison). Both will do nicely for defense.
In terms of ballistic performance, I would put this load from a snub well ahead of any .32acp or .380acp offering.
As long as you're proficient, carry the snub with confidence!
Sunray
Member
"...The best .38 Special loads will beat the best .380 ACP loads..." The worst .38 Spec load will beat the best .380 load. Go with a .357 mag.
stans
Member
Which caliber/gun combination do you shoot best? A 500 S&W Magnum might be the best stopper out there, but if you can't hit your target with it then it is the worst possible choice. So a .22 placed in the heart or brain is going to be far better than a 38, 357, 10mm, 44, 45 or whatever placed into the mailbox beside the perpetrator. Pick what you shoot best.
Telewinz: "Is there a 32acp or 380 acp round deemed at least 50% effective (1 shot) in put downs?"
According to data compiled by Evan Marshall, .32 acp Silvertip ammo rates 66% one-shot stops, same as .45 Hardball(!)
I am aware of the controversy concerning Marshall/Sanow's data, and can only say that I find their numbers credible if not a perfect analysis.
I cannot understand why 125 gr. .357 has a higher success rate than ANY .44 Magnum load, but I don't think they just made up their data.
JR
According to data compiled by Evan Marshall, .32 acp Silvertip ammo rates 66% one-shot stops, same as .45 Hardball(!)
I am aware of the controversy concerning Marshall/Sanow's data, and can only say that I find their numbers credible if not a perfect analysis.
I cannot understand why 125 gr. .357 has a higher success rate than ANY .44 Magnum load, but I don't think they just made up their data.
JR
Sean Smith
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Is it really credible for a .32 to stop people as well as a .45? Or for.40 S&W pistol bullets to have similar OSS numbers to high-power rifle bullets and shotgun slugs? I'd suggest NOT.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50402&perpage=25&highlight=M&S&pagenumber=2
Easy, they are full of crap.
I am from the bigger is better school of thought. I carried a 9mm for years, but the last couple of years I have been packing a lightweight commander sized pistol with Hydrashoks. I feel like I am well served to carry the largest caliber that I can shoot well even if I can shoot smaller calibers better.
cratz2
Member
I don't own a P11 nor have I ever carried one but I was just about to get one when I bought a used polymer Kahr from a member on this board. I've shot two P11s and have a very favorable experience with them. I also respect the 9mm cartridge. If I owned only the guns you listed, I'd definately carry the P11. I'd make sure all the edges were smooth and non-fatiguing.
I also am a firm believer in every gun-owner/CCWer that doesn't absolutely desipise should own a P32 or P3AT. The best example of an economical anywhere always gun. When I bought my first P32, I owned several large frame pistols (1911s, CZ75s, Taurus) and a 686. I was much more likely to always have my P32 with me than one of my beloved 1911s and that is what is most important... having the gun with you when you need it.
I really think of 38 snubs as backup guns or carried in a coat pocket. I own a 38 and I have a holster for it but I would feel slightly less armed with it than with my Kahr.
As far as stopping power goes, my general goal is to be able to draw a weapon and fire it two to five times more quickly than the agressor can deal a fatal blow (or shot or stab...) to me. In all my carry guns, I keep at least one or two FMJs rounds at the bottom of the mag or the last shot of the cylinder. I may be deluding myself, but I firmly believe that if someone takes three to five 124 gr +P Gold Dots in the torso and a single round of FMJ to the head, they aren't likely to be able to keep up with me as I run away.
For one shot stop percentages... it's complete crap. I mean, if it makes you feel better to select a certain loading or even a certain cartridge over another that you feel confident with just because someone can make specifically chosen data prove their point, then knock yourself out... But no one will ever convince me that a 32 caliber MagSafe is as effective as 45ACP hardball against a drug-crazed agressor ten feet away from me. Never happen, never will... I have one of his books and enjoy reading the stories in them... I'd even go so far as to say I can accept the major cartridge trends... But I take most of them with a grain of salt... Maybe even a bit less.
I also am a firm believer in every gun-owner/CCWer that doesn't absolutely desipise should own a P32 or P3AT. The best example of an economical anywhere always gun. When I bought my first P32, I owned several large frame pistols (1911s, CZ75s, Taurus) and a 686. I was much more likely to always have my P32 with me than one of my beloved 1911s and that is what is most important... having the gun with you when you need it.
I really think of 38 snubs as backup guns or carried in a coat pocket. I own a 38 and I have a holster for it but I would feel slightly less armed with it than with my Kahr.
As far as stopping power goes, my general goal is to be able to draw a weapon and fire it two to five times more quickly than the agressor can deal a fatal blow (or shot or stab...) to me. In all my carry guns, I keep at least one or two FMJs rounds at the bottom of the mag or the last shot of the cylinder. I may be deluding myself, but I firmly believe that if someone takes three to five 124 gr +P Gold Dots in the torso and a single round of FMJ to the head, they aren't likely to be able to keep up with me as I run away.
For one shot stop percentages... it's complete crap. I mean, if it makes you feel better to select a certain loading or even a certain cartridge over another that you feel confident with just because someone can make specifically chosen data prove their point, then knock yourself out... But no one will ever convince me that a 32 caliber MagSafe is as effective as 45ACP hardball against a drug-crazed agressor ten feet away from me. Never happen, never will... I have one of his books and enjoy reading the stories in them... I'd even go so far as to say I can accept the major cartridge trends... But I take most of them with a grain of salt... Maybe even a bit less.
clubsoda22
member
just to let you know, +P+ .38 is not the same a +P .38. It generates magnum level pressures. It's only to be shot in guns rated for .357. It was designed so police departments wouldn't have to defend their use of magnum ammo that can drop elephants and destroy tanks in court. Stop before your taurus explodes.I say the decision is really between .38 and .380. Personally i'd pick .380. More shots (7+1 vs 5 or 6) in a caliber that's close to equivalent to a .38 from a 2" barrel. I like winchester ranger .380 in my bersa thunder.
Smoke
Member
Stopping power 
Nothing less than 12ga and that is "iffy" :banghead:
Smoke
Nothing less than 12ga and that is "iffy" :banghead:
Smoke
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