best trail round for autoloader handgun

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Polar Express

Polar Express

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While I thought about putting this in the 'general' section, I decided to start this in the 'autoloader' sub-forum. I did this because I'm specifically asking for info/experience/opinions/ideas about the cartridges that would be best for carrying an AUTOLOADING handgun while out in the woods.

Some of the critters that live in areas I enjoy recreating in are: Bears, (black around 'home', brown where it’s fun to fish) coyotes, and potentially cougar, wolf, moose. While I understand animal behavior suggests that most of those will move away when a human approaches, the only one of those I haven't seen in the wild is a moose. Let me be clear, I try to AVOID, but sometimes, we/the critter gets surprised. While fishing, sometimes that darn bear just wants your fish. (let them have it)

I've often thought that the 10mm would be the best available, while out in the woods. Where I live, the toughest, nastiest thing you'd be likely to encounter is a black bear. But... having stood on the banks of a river fishing in Alaska, those fuzzy critters get a bit bigger. While I whole-heartedly believe the best option is to AVOID angry critters, on the off chance you surprise one, or are surprised, what would be the best option?

10mm?
357 Sig?
.45 ACP?
9mm?
.40 S&W
anything I'm missing?

I've heard that the 10mm resembles 41 Magnum performance, but... (is it that the high-end of 10mm, resembles the low-end of 41 Mag? Or ?????) Since each caliber has a range from low to high. As I was reading in another active thread, that 357 Sig seems to get close to the .357 Mag, if you get the hotter loads. Is the extra mass of that 10mm bullet going to work better against a grumpy bear?

I fully understand that there are different bullet weights, designs, construction and materials that can be used. So, I’m also curious about which specific load/bullet works well against those types of critters.

It’s worth mentioning, that I'd prefer a factory load, over a home-brew option.

Thanks,
PE
 
If brown bears are part of the equation, I think using an autoloader is a poor choice compared to a .44mag or bigger revolver with penetration-oriented rounds.

If you just have to use an auto, and aren't going to use some exotic auto in a magnum caliber (which I would avoid) then 10mm with heavy hardcast would be the next best option.
 
you're not in my neck of the woods so I would go with a 10mm if possible.

357 Sig is a great round and will weigh a little less than 10mm but you may as well get the most powerful you can if you are really worried about it.

That being said you are about to get a TON of replies telling you to get bear spray, practice smart woodsmanship, store you food properly, and that you will need a gun more for 2 legged critters than 4.

So make sure you do and understand the above.
 
When talking about big critters a bigger bullet is better, and easier to get hard hitting factory ammo. In your criteria list i would say 10mm followed by 45 in a quality, modern, durable handgun. 357 sig is pretty awesome, but if faced with a mad bear, cougar, or moose, i would rather be punching big diameter holes over hoping for a little extra penetration of a much smaller bullet.

Sent from my LGLS740 using Tapatalk
 
If it has to be a semi-auto I would get a 10mm and use some stout loads and some bear spray.

I have to say I would be more comfortable with a 44 mag such as a 629 with a 4" or 5" barrel. It's relatively light and I would have more confidence in that round...and I would still carry spray.

I know shot placement is king and a semi-auto affords better capacity but you may only get a chance for 1 or 2 shots.
 
I've used a G20 for a very long time and about a year ago bought a G29 to have something even more compact. I live in north GA and often hike and camp in east TN or western NC where black bear are common. And often acclimated to and unafraid of humans. I own several 3" to 4" revolvers in 357 and 44 magnum that stay at home. I feel very well about the 10mm with the loads I'm using if I had to use it on a black bear. DoubleTap 200 gr hardcast @1300 fps.

I chose the G20 on 2 trips to Yellowstone. I realize it is VERY borderline for tougher, more aggressive grizzly, but am of the opinion that deep penetration and a lot of luck are the only chance. A 200 gr hardcast bullet is going to give as much penetration as any 44 mag load and I have 16 chances to get lucky instead of 6. Plus either gun is considerably lighter and more compact than even a 3" revolver. Especially the G29.

Performance is all about barrel length. The numbers you see published for 357 and 44 mag are from 7"-8" test barrels. All semi-auto numbers you see published are from 4"-5" barrels and are closer to real world numbers. If you have an 8" barreled magnum revolver it is in another league that 10mm can't compete with. But the numbers you get from 3-4" magnum revolvers aren't all that much better than 10mm. In fact a 4.5" 10mm with 180-200 gr bullets will out perform 357 mag from a 4" barrel with 180-200 gr bullets. It'll shoot the 200's about 150-200 fps faster than you can get from a 3" 44 mag and 240 gr bullets.

When compared to 41 mag the best 10mm loads will almost match the best 41 mag loads if fired from a 4" or shorter barrel. Put a 6"-8" barrel on the 41 and the 10mm can't keep up.
 
Here's a guy living in Alaska that has chosen the .45 Super out of an H&K USP 45. He practices with .45 Auto and carries the .45 Super.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?16503-HK-USP-45-field-pistol

He's been down the path of most of the big auto cartridges and pistols. One problem he's had with most of the pistols is finding one that would reliably feed the big animal thumping bullets. So far, the H&K USP 45 with .45 Super seems to be working out.
 
I know this is about hand guns but I'll share my opinion anyway...

If I were headed into bear/lion/etc. country I would want at least a 12g semi shotgun with slugs and a large pistol as a backup, .44 Mag minimum. However with rods/tackle and or other gear that might be impractical, I don't know your situation and willingness.

Given the choice of one only I'd take the shotgun over the pistol every time...
 
I would not hesitate carrying a full size 1911 .45acp with 8 + 1 and the following ammo:

Buffalo Bore .45 ACP +P OUTDOORSMAN Pistol and Handgun Ammo
.45 ACP +P OUTDOORSMAN Ammo - 255 gr. Hard Cast FN (925 fps/M.E. 484 ft. lbs.) - 20 and 50 Round Boxes.

It works just fine in my Springfield 1911, it is very stout, but with a dangerous animal in the picture, I doubt you'd even notice!
 
By your criteria I say 10mm. It's what I carry because there aren't any larger predators. Now if I was in brown bear country I'd want a larger caliber rifle or 12ga shotgun w/ me. The 12ga loaded w/ slugs would be a better option for up close protection.

Regardless of what you're carrying you need to be able to hit what you're aiming at. I've had a black bear rush up a tree next to me while I was sitting in a treestand. They move extremely fast for a large animal. So you better be able to draw and fire a 10mm quickly if that's what you decide to carry.
 
Since it has not been mentioned I'll post it. The boutique caliber 460 Rowland would be worth looking into. Limited ammo producers - I have tried only Underwood at the range (255 grain hard cast stated to run 1300 fps).

I used my springfield loaded gov't 1911 with a Clark drop-in conversion kit. Stout load, and surprisingly accurate. Johnny Rowland's company makes a variety of kits for Glock and XD, though I have no experience with them. He is the inventor of the cartridge.
 
I would also go with a 10mm., most likely a Glock 29. Compact, lightweight, and packing a decent punch, I believe this would be the way to go given the OP's parameters.
 
For my woods adventures in SEKY, where we do have some black bear, I use a Glock 20 and don't feel undergunned. That said, we don't have brown bear, cougar (that I'm aware of) or wolves. I carry 180gr XTP handloads that chrono around 1350 FPS
 
JohnnyFlake said:
I would not hesitate carrying a full size 1911 .45acp with 8 + 1 and the following ammo:

Buffalo Bore .45 ACP +P OUTDOORSMAN Pistol and Handgun Ammo
.45 ACP +P OUTDOORSMAN Ammo - 255 gr. Hard Cast FN (925 fps/M.E. 484 ft. lbs.) - 20 and 50 Round Boxes.

It works just fine in my Springfield 1911, it is very stout, but with a dangerous animal in the picture, I doubt you'd even notice!
Click to expand...

That's what I carry in my Glock 30SF while bow hunting. It chronographs out of my gun at 925 fps. Straight line penetration of 10 water jugs. While we have no grizzlies where I hunt, we do have lots of black bears, mountain lion and moose. A momma moose is probably the biggest threat, although being a few steps away from a newly startled elk with a dozen or so ice picks attached to his head also can get one's blood pumping even if it is not considered "dangerous."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFJkBDCK6-8

For a person who only has a 9mm, don't overlook the Buffalo Bore 147 grain +P flat point hard cast Outdoorsman round. Not ideal, but not something to sneeze at. Out of a Glock 19:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ursfz1Wg8hA

Out of a Glock 43:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOqneurEqOY
 
As most suggest a longer rifle cartridge would be the preferred round. Handguns are just that - small, portable, and generally half the power and range. Yet the necessary foot pounds of force aren't all there to ensure a reliable stopping shot (which doesn't really exist on a one-shot basis.)

Minimum dangerous game force levels are generally about 2,000 foot pounds. More is better. The .44 Mag is only in the 1350 range.

More power is needed.

Since a long shotgun or rifle is an issue being packed into a stream to fish, then of course smaller is desired. But handguns are too small even in their best setups. A compromise is needed.

An AR in .458 SOCOM would do that. Yes it's an out of the box solution but it does meet the foot pounds of force needed while minimizing the bulk of the weapon. It also highlights the issues involved - we often seek a traditional solution when they are generally not supplying the answer we need. A 16" carbine with ten shot magazine would be more than ample compared to a 6 shot .44 or larger automatic. It would be much smaller than a traditional rifle and it would also shrug off getting dunked from a slippery rock tipping an angler into the stream. How you access a pistol wearing waders means using a shoulder or chest harness - which interferes with fly fishing gear. Slinging the rifle cross body would keep it accessible and it would tolerate the wet environment a lot more than a more expensive handgun.

I don't expect anyone to immediately embrace the concept, I'm trying to demonstrate a methodology to come to a workable solution with the necessary requirements met. Dangerous Bear/Moose = 2,000 foot pounds = non handgun solution in a wet cold environment hip deep or more in the water. Nobody is going to make it running away, the angler is basically trapped on the spot and needs all the force they can muster to stop aggression. Therefore .458 SOCOM auto loading gun.

It's Alaska . . .
 
My shooting buddy goes on an annual hike & camp with his brother who
comes up mid-summer from California. A few years ago they were
warned by Idaho F&G about black bear activity in the area. Shooting
Buddy has an ID CWL and was carrying his Glock 19 feeling a
bit 'undergunned.' After he related this to me as we were on the way
for some range time, I told him the Dane Army puts 2 man teams on the
ice in Greenland to census polar bear population. They are armed with
a .30-06 Bolt Action rifle and a Glock 20. Shooting Buddy has a G20
now for his woods gun, Enjoys handloading the 10mm.
 
If bears of any kind are a concern, I recommend you give the 10mm serious consideration. If it were me, I'd be looking at the Sig Sauer P220 in 10mm. It has a 5" barrel and an all steel frame. That'll help soak up recoil. I'd carry hard cast ammo in it too.

The next step would be a Desert Eagle in 44 mag or 50 AE. Those guns aren't for everyone though.
 
45 ACP or 10mm would make me most comfortable, with the caveat that if brown bears are a possibility no handgun would be enough. I'd much prefer the 12ga there.
 
Tirod said:
As most suggest a longer rifle cartridge would be the preferred round. Handguns are just that - small, portable, and generally half the power and range. Yet the necessary foot pounds of force aren't all there to ensure a reliable stopping shot (which doesn't really exist on a one-shot basis.)

Minimum dangerous game force levels are generally about 2,000 foot pounds. More is better. The .44 Mag is only in the 1350 range.

More power is needed.

* * *

I don't expect anyone to immediately embrace the concept, I'm trying to demonstrate a methodology to come to a workable solution with the necessary requirements met. Dangerous Bear/Moose = 2,000 foot pounds = non handgun solution in a wet cold environment hip deep or more in the water. Nobody is going to make it running away, the angler is basically trapped on the spot and needs all the force they can muster to stop aggression. Therefore .458 SOCOM auto loading gun.

It's Alaska . . .
Click to expand...

The things that matter the most are the ability of the bullet to penetrate to something important to the movement of the offending critter and then to break that. That could be the spine/brain or specific bones like legs. Secondarily, hitting things important to sustaining life such as lungs and heart can kill the animal over time. While velocity and energy can contribute to penetration and breaking things, in the abstract they are largely irrelevant. Hard cast bullets at moderate velocity can both penetrate and break important things in a package that the average shooter can handle with decent split times with a modicum of practice.

For a specific application where weight , mobility and ease of carry are not considerations, I can understand a specific solution like a shotgun loaded with slugs. For general woods bumming, though, I am a generalist.
 
The guy mentioned in post 7 went to the 45 Super after using glock 10s for a couple years. Between he and his wife I believe they had 6 or 8 glock 10s, the 20s and whatever the compact model is. Exactly NONE of which functioned completely reliably with the heaviest commercial loads available. If you choose a glock 10mm, shoot several hundred rounds of your chosen bear ammo before deciding its OK.

He contacted glock, who replied that those loads were outside the performance envelope the guns were designed for, and didn't consider it a problem on their part.

If somebody elses gun works well with them, great. GJMs experience hints to more than an example of one, and its a serious matter if your gun chokes in that situation. Shooting a mag or two, or a few boxes over time and calling it good isn't smart vetting of the loads. Perhaps some shoot the heaviest stuff well. Some just don't. Make no assumptions, test your gun with the loads of choice in sufficient quantities to be positive.

Bear gun threads always turn interesting. Many strongly held opinions expressed, often by people not living or working around large bears, or saying what their experience with them is. :)
 
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Of the calibers you listed, 10mm, preferably with a 200+ grain hardcast load offers the best penetration, no question. DoubleTap, BB, Underwood, etc.

But if weight is a factor (if you are hiking for real distance), you may have to make compromises. I sometimes carry a 9mm Shield with those hardcast 147 grain BB loads and feel just fine about it. People are your real concern (if you are not in Alaska, anyway).
 
I would say it matters less on what you carry and more on how good you get with the gun you pick. I own a 500 S&W but would probably take my CZ Shadow over it for pretty much every thing.

The reason being is I can controllably shoot the 9mm about three times as fast as the 500 so it 5 second the target would have 15 holes in I instead of 5. As far as penetration goes with good hot FMJ it shouldn't be a problem.
 
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