best training $20 can buy.....

[SSN Vet]

I had a great experience this past Saturday up at the Capital City Rifle and Pistol Club in Augusta, which hosted a USPSA clinic for those new to action pistol type competitions.

I was impressed to see how many organized shooting events they host/sponsor, especially for a relatively small club. And they have an entire wall stacked three deep with trophies to attest to that.

The day started with and hour long Power Point slide show, teaching the game principles and rules and then progressed to the pistol range for instruction and practice on grip, stance, draw, shooting controlled pairs, reloads, strong arm only, week arm only, etc... collimating with timed strings of fire.

There were only about 12 "newbies" and at least 5 experienced competitors turned out so that each group of three had a coach, so the level of personal attention was very high.

The range was conducted in an orderly manner, with a very strong emphasis on muzzle control and finger control. They even had jugs of water and cups for those who forgot to bring water bottles.

After serving us pizza and soda for lunch we headed to the back range and shot a mini three stage match.

If you've never done this type of timed shooting before, you'll be amazed how fast 5 seconds goes by . But the coaches were great at slowing us down to stay focused on technique and accuracy.

So six hours of training with lunch to boot. Met some great guys and got to do some action shooting (which is pretty much verboten at many ranges), all for $20.

If you have a club nearby that is running action pistol events, I highly recommend getting on their e-mail list and watching for this kind of clinic. Or just head out to a match and jump in. I'm sure you'll find folks willing to mentor you through the process.

My thanks to J and Paul and all the other guys for putting on a great event.

 

[Sam1911]

(Moved to the General forum as this isn't S&T related.)

That sounds like a lot of fun! I'd like to run something like that at my club sometime. 'Course, it seems like we always have new guys showing up every week, so getting them organized into one class might be tough.

Something to think about!

Glad you had a good time. Now, reward their efforts by showing up to shoot! (...and to HELP!)

 

[1SOW]

It sounds like they had a great presentation at a great price!

Like Sam said, enjoy what you learned and help with patching targets, stage set-ups and the next 'newbie' who will appreciate the help you can give as you gain experience.

Most of all be safe and enjoy!

 

[Seattleimport]

Wow, that sounds like a terrific time. Informative and fun. I wonder if Seattle has such events.

 

[SSN Vet]

I wonder if Seattle has such events.

Look and see....

http://www.idpa.com/clublist.asp?pick=WA

Bellveau can't be to far.

I didn't mention the two down sides to my Saturday excursion...
1. It was hot as hades that day
2. I had to drive 105 miles each way

still, it was worth it

 

[Ryanxia]

Great to see some activity in Maine!

 

[killchain]

Look and see....

http://www.idpa.com/clublist.asp?pick=WA

Bellveau can't be to far.

I didn't mention the two down sides to my Saturday excursion...
1. It was hot as hades that day
2. I had to drive 105 miles each way

still, it was worth it

The other side of the state, but here's a club based in Kennewick, WA.

http://ewpsa.org/

 

[Hk Dan]

Sam--USPSA will send ya the plan if you're an affiliated club.

My real point--USPSA particularly and IDPA seondarily are NOT "Training". They are at best "Practice", assuming you know whar you're doing when you started. USPSA will teach you more about your weaknesses as a shooter, and do more to flat get you killed than any otherendeavor that I know. IDPA will teach you less about your deficiencies and be less likely to get you killed, but it still ain't no training course.

If USPSA or IDPA is your training, you're asking for failure.

 

[Sam1911]

There was a thread a couple of years ago where someone posted a quote from an old-school big name in the competition and defensive shooting world denigrating the value of shooting games as training.

I wrote the following brief reply:

I believe there are two levels at which we can approach this argument.

First there is the point of view of the master-class (or grand master class) level gun game competitor. I have to believe that it is from this point of view that Chuck speaks. It is legitimate for someone from that corner of the world (as Chuck himself is) to express a word of caution to those folks who have mastered the various aspects of the shooting game -- eliminating "wasted" movements to shave thousandths of a second off their times, analyzing transitions over a known course of fire, speed and efficiency over every other concern, tweaking their gear to within ounces and fractions of an inch of the rule-book limits for their division, etc. -- that the pursuits which have taken them to mastery of their sport will not serve to keep them alive in a gunfight. And it is wise to point out to those thousands of shooters who emulate the guys at the top of the heap that, "Just because you saw Robbie L., Todd J., Dave S., or Jerry M. move this way, or reload there, or clear that hallway that quickly, or whatever, doesn't mean you should have such ideas in your head when you strap on your carry weapon every day." And to folks whose jobs, or very lives, may put them into danger from armed assailants, Chuck is saying, "Make sure you have REAL training that will save your life. Don't rely on a run-and-gun mind-set to get you through."

On quite the other hand, to look out over hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of average Joes and Janes who; 1) have hunted for years but now think that maybe they want to get their CCW and buy a pistol, or 2) who've lived without exposure to guns and just woke up to the realities of a dangerous world, or 3) who are part of that 99% of both the police and the military that draws a gun about twice a year to qualify on a static range, or 4) is a pretty sold-out "gunny" type who owns a modest, but very clean, collection of firearms and hits the range once a month or so to try as best as he can figure out (probably on his own) to put 50 holes somewhere in a silhouette target at 20 yds over the course of an hour and a couple of coffee breaks -- I say, to look at these folks and say, "IDPA & USPSA style shooting will get you KILLED!" is just insulting and ludicrous.

If you have reached that pinnacle of shooting excellence whereby your eye-hand coordination is flawless and your split times are consistently under 0.15 sec., and you're seriously griping that IDPA doesn't have a "Grand Master" class because you're so bored -- AND -- you have reason to be concerned for the validity of your training vis-a-vis life-and-death armed confrontations in the real world, then by all means leave the pure sport behind and seek out the training you need.

If, however, you are still one of the millions who can't say that, then the practice in gun-handling, worn-in safety procedures, sight alignment and trigger control under stress, unconscious manipulation of the gun's controls and the reload, etc., etc., can ONLY help. And they can make a HUGE difference. And the encouragement and coaching of a group of accomplished shooters (especially those with a "practical" mindset as well as the competitive view) will propel you far further, far faster, than you can ever hope to get on your own.

Most confrontations where a gun is used involve a very few "opponents" and, if shots are fired at all, usually it's less than three or four rounds. For the vast majority of us, having a gun with us, and being generally proficient in its use, and able to make center-of-mass hits almost unconsciously under stress, will increase our "win" rate by 100x. This is where the "gun games" shine as a strong training aid. They get people out shooting -- a lot -- and shooting while moving, trying to find and use cover (sometimes), facing an endless variety of target presentations, etc. For most folks, the alternative is either plinking at bulls-eyes and tin cans or sitting on the couch watching Starsky & Hutch re-runs.

There are things that a defensive trainer will teach you that are VERY important. But if you aren't going to train with one -- and MOST FOLK'S AREN'T, period -- what CAN you do to improve your skills? Gun games make good shooting practice accessible, convienient, and challenging. To say that they HURT the average shooter "defensively" is stupid.

 

[WC145]

Yes, there are people shooting in Maine! I shot in my first IDPA match this past Sunday at the Hampden Rifle & Pistol Club outside Bangor. Had a great time with some really friendly and welcoming folks, even won ESP (of course there was only two of us in that class) and won overall as well! I shot my duty gun a S&W 1911 9mm Pro Series. They had 5 stages set up and everything was run smoothly and safely. It was the best $20 I've spent in a long time, I'll definitely be attending as many of their matches as I can.

As far as the training/experience/practice question - IMO any trigger time is good, especially when you're having to think and work under a bit of pressure and if you can put rounds on target with speed and accuracy on the range, it'll help your performance off the range as well. To say that it is useless or detrimental is like telling a boxer that bag and mitt work isn't "training". This kind of shooting is a way of putting your knowledge and skills to work using the gun and gear you carry every day, I can't see how that is going to work against you "on the street".

Oh yeah, I had about a 85 mile drive each way (nothing is close in Maine) but it was well worth it. My Dad tagged along to watch and now, at 72, he's thinking he might have to try his hand at it!

 

[Sam1911]

I can't see how that is going to work against you "on the street".

Obviously I agree with you, for the most part.

What the "It isn't training" folks are saying is that you fight like you train (hopefully!) and practicing some of the commonly acceptable procedures employed in USPSA (yes, and IDPA too) competition could be detrimental on the "street."

Some common ones are:
1) Shooting out in the open, exposing yourself to you "enemies," engaging threats not in order of danger level, etc. This is mostly a USPSA thing, where you may stand and deliver without a concern for the "threat" that your targets might represent. I believe this one is pretty obvious and most folks aren't really going to do that in the "real" world. IDPA is a little bit better in that you will be practicing shooting from behind cover when it is available, but the issue stands. Everyone is racing toward the next shot. In a gunfight AVOIDING shots (taken or received!) is far, FAR better.

2) Ammo management. Most of us won't carry seven reload mags in "race" carriers. Tossing ammo/mags aside after a few shots to get a quick reload is probably not a great idea in "real life." You might need that later...

These two ... and probably a half-dozen others are "technical" points that might not be advantageous to carry with you off the range.

Then there are the "bigger picture" points:

1) Who do you shoot? In the real world, threat identification is probably a much bigger problem than accuracy or speed. The bad guys aren't made of brown cardboard. The innocents aren't made of white cardboard (or don't have open hands painted on them). These games don't do anything to develop your critical decision-making skills in that area.

2) When do you shoot? Obviously, there will be no "BEEP" when you should draw and shoot. Running the El Prez in 7 seconds is impressive, but to think that you'll somehow know when there are three equidistant threats approaching you from behind and that you'll grok when to spin, grab the gun, and unload on them (and reload and repeat) -- well, that's a stretch. These games don't train your warning threshold to know when to shoot, when to run, and when to hold your fire.

3) Over-emphasis on equipment: The gun games will help you wring out your kit so you know it works well and you'll become "one" with your equipment. That's fine -- but most defensive situations could be "solved" with a 5-shot revolver and a clear, decisive, mind. The most ergonomic gun, the best fiber-optic sights, the fastest holster, the perfect power-factor kissing ammo, etc. -- which seems to take up 50% of our focus in the sports -- is worth about a 3 (on a scale of 100) when things happen in real life. Now the gear makers won't tell you that in their ads...

4) Over-emphasis on SHOOTING: The shooting games are fun. Shooting is FUN! No one would go to a shooting match that was 2 hours of wondering among a sea of non-threat targets and at some point along the way you had to fire three shots at a threat that pops up four feet away. But that's closer to realistic. You go to a competition to SHOOT (80-200 rds., on average) -- but SHOOTING is the answer to maybe only 3% of potentially violent encounters -- even if a gun is involved! As they say, "if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail." You can't shoot everyone that makes you uncomfortable -- or even harms you in some way. Un-armed, non-violent conflict avoidance/mitigation training would be more practical for most of us.

5) Shooting in a non-threatening environment: It is "easy" to stand and shoot well -- with good grip, stance, sight picture, trigger control, etc. -- when the targets are made of cardboard. You will be lucky to shoot 1/10th as well when there are loud bangs, flashes, pain, blood, confusion, fear, screaming, fighting, and other elements of real violence clouding your mind. Most of that is extremely difficult or impossible to ever practice (though some folks do manage to do so) but it is important to not be lulled into a sense of superiority/complacency/adequacy by the range time you're used to.

And so on.

Still, I maintain that if you are going to carry a gun, you should be well practiced in how to safely manage it, and how to shoot accurately and quickly if you need to. The games will help with that.

 

[shockwave]

Full agreement with Sam and also the quote below:

This is where the "gun games" shine as a strong training aid. They get people out shooting -- a lot -- and shooting while moving, trying to find and use cover (sometimes), facing an endless variety of target presentations, etc.

The only way that IDPA or IPSC could be considered "bad" training is if the shooter has the wrong mindset. There are many ways a person can benefit from this kind of practice, provided that he or she has the right attitude about what they're doing and why they're doing it.

As an example, when I go to the range for target shooting, I usually have some particular objective based on what I'm currently working on. It might be a session purely to focus on a steady, smooth DA pull. When I do this, the paper target is a secondary consideration: first and foremost I'm working on the trigger pull, getting it consistent and working on pulling it straight back to the backstrap. How the shots fall on the target are additional information.

In the same way, a shooting game competition offers chances to practice specific skills like drawing and target acquisition (not necessarily target discrimination, per Sam's comment, albeit more so in IPSC). Practicing certain movements, skills and techniques under pressure increases the odds that you'll be able to replicate them in a real-life context.

We see this play out in martial arts training all the time. The dojo student is often seen to fall apart completely when under adrenaline stress; those who train with stress establish better execution under fire because they practice working through nausea, sight and hearing shutdown, time dilation, etc.

In one IPSC contest I was in, I remember mainly working on my shirt sweep, working to avoid snagging my shirt on my holster and grip. Just that. And doing that under stress over and over gave me a skill so that in an actual draw event, the sweep-and-push-away movement is now more ingrained and automatic. The competition revealed a real-life problem and an opportunity to solve it.

As long as the practitioner uses this kind of training and practice on practical skill development, it should be time well-spent. All the warnings about "this will get you killed" just mean that the shooter should not mistakenly believe that "winning" a ribbon or trophy means that he or she is now prepared for real-life street defense. It's important to get additional training in front-sight shooting, sightless shooting, etc.

Finally, there is no point at which anyone is "perfectly" prepared. It's a lifetime journey that never ends.

 

[SSN Vet]

I was using a relatively new Don Hume leather pancake at the clinic that isn't broken in yet (I was the only one there not wearing Kydex) and my groups coach made some kit recommendations.

I told him that my goal wasn't really to be competitive in the game, but rather to build proficiency with my every day carry and home defense firearms and gear.

He was totally understanding and encouraging and then tailored his comments more towards how I could brake in my leather holster more quickly.

Point being that when people are laid back and accepting of others with different objectives, everyone walks away happy.

I'm sure there are some anal retentive, know it all, my way is right period types out there, but the crew I had the pleasure of shooting with wasn't like that at all.