Big Brother IS watching.

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Well.....

1. This was not big brother, but a private camera.

2. I'm the biggest proponent of self-defense you'll ever find, but what THAT guy did looks like MURDER to me. Now, we don't know what really happened; whether the decedent who was down was really OUT or not; i.e. whether he made an aggressive move toward his weapon or whatnot. We cannot see that part. If he did, it's gonna be a good case of self-defense. If he didn't, it's pretty clearly murder. The guy seems way more concerned with getting the 2nd guy than what the 1st guy was doing after he went down (i.e. not concerned about separating him from his weapon etc.); he seemed far more concerned about revenge than he was in defending his store (himself & his territory), by leaving and turning his back on the guy who was down. Bottom line, if I was on that jury, and there was believable testimony of any kind, even to the slightest degree, that the guy on the ground made a move for his gun, then I'd fully aquit. If he didn't, then I would vote 2nd degree murder, or a minimum of manslaughter.

but no, I'm not a fan of government cameras in public in most cases. But there's a place for them in public areas, not private.

 

[9x23]

are you taking exception to that?

Tad -

1. This was not big brother, but a private camera.

It would appear that you missed post # 13

It doesn’t matter who owns the cameras; if they show the occurrence of a crime the police will confiscate them as evidence. So, yeah, Big Brother IS watching - if not disguised as wolf in sheep’s clothing.

...or are you taking exception to that? If so, would you mind giving us the rationale behind your pronouncement?.....9x23

 

[ants]

t165 said: I just viewed a better video of the robbery. It is clear now that the slain robber was placing a mask over his face so the innocent/confused bystander argument is out the window. Just so much we really do not know at this point.

t165

Are there two videos? Most of us have seen only one. I would appreciate a link to a second one.
Thanks.

 

[AllAmerican]

I hope someday we get to the place where "if the perp commits a robbery or some other crime using a weapon, he may be killed by whatever means"

I suppose it doesnt look good for the victim but Im glad he did what he did and I hope he walks.

"good guys should live, bad guys, not so much" - Ted Nugent 09

 

[Xader]

To those discussing what "can" or "can't" be seen in the video, I refer you to this video:

WARNING: Violence
http://tinypic.com/r/2rzfh1l/5

Watch it twice.

The second time, look in the perp's right hand when he's on the ground.

I take no stance one way or another in this case, but just food for thought.

 

[Jim K]

In MD a while back there was an incident that went like this. A bar owner refused to serve a drunk any more liquor. The drunk staggered out, saying he was going to get a gun and shoot the owner.

After closing time, the drunk came back, banged on the window and shouted threats against the bar owner who was still inside. The owner shot the drunk through the window, seriously wounding him.

Remember all that "drag him inside" advice? Well, that is what the businessman did, and then shot the wounded and unconscious man twice in the head as he lay on the floor.

The initial shooting was iffy (the drunk was unarmed), but probably would have been ruled justifiable, considering what had gone before in front of witnesses.

The second shooting got the bar owner convicted of first degree murder and he is still serving a life sentence.

Jim

 

[Jim K]

Hi, All American,

Let's rephrase that to reflect reality:

"If someone thinks anyone is committing or may attempt to commit a robbery or some other crime using a weapon, he may be killed by whatever means".

So if YOU are carrying a weapon, you could be killed if someone sees the gun and THINKS you MIGHT commit a crime.

Still sound like a good idea?

Jim

 

[MisterMike]

That's not true in all states. In Texas, you have the absolute right to use lethal force so long as there is close proximity in time and place between the application of force and the commission of the crime.

TB--

Could you give me some more info on this? I looked at the TX statute, and it seems consistent with most other states', in the sense that it refers to an "immediate" danger. Thanks.

 

[Travis Bickle]

TB--

Could you give me some more info on this? I looked at the TX statute, and it seems consistent with most other states', in the sense that it refers to an "immediate" danger. Thanks.

I could be wrong. But I remember hearing from a reliable source that that was the law in Texas. It would make sense if it were, since Texas has the most permissive use of force laws in the country.

 

[MisterMike]

Maybe we should take the question of Texas law up another time in another thread, since this incident occurred in OK.

We'll no doubt see and hear a lot more about this case as it develops. The thing that struck me, though, was the apparent calmness of the pharmacist as he retrieved the second weapon and shot the perp the second time (five shots?). He didn't appear to be someone acting as though he was in imminent fear of his safety or life.

 

[t165]

TexasRifleman and ants...the first video I saw was so distorted I could not tell what the slain robber was doing. The second video I later saw was much clearer and I could tell he was not just another customer because he was putting a mask over his face. It also shows the pharmacist running outside chasing the other robber. Other comments on this thread make mention of counting the fired shots. I have not ran across a video of this with audio. I do not know how to post a link to youtube but you can look for it there.

And yes 9x23, the government has deep pockets in which to prosecute alleged criminals. Court appointed lawyers, at least where I come from, are discouraged from spending too much of the counties monies to defend criminals...that is why I stated I would not trust my life to a court appointed lawyer.

Exculpatory evidence has been know to be ignored and not presented in probable cause affidavits. Two local Indiana State Troopers were arrested because of this a couple of years ago in a murder case. Real law enforcement officers know all too well the good ol' boy politics which gets played everyday.

I do feel for the pharmacist! Do you have any experience with armed robberies 9x23 (if you are a LEO)? Not just showing up after the fact but an actual robbery in progress? I have...it gets you blood pumping. I threatened to shoot the guy after he kept advancing on me. His buddy ran off and my head was on a swivel trying to relocate him and handle the other would be robber. I cannot tell what all transpired out of view but I can testify the adrenaline level is high.

Your list is funny...I guess you are just being silly! I got a list for you...

Are you...
(A) A Mall Ninja
(B) A Convict
(C) Delusional
(D) A Federal Agent (they are smarter and more important than a dime-a -dozen cop)

Of course, YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT

 

[Buddy Rabbit]

In this instance, I am concerned.
The victim responded with appropriate force to defend his place of business. Having put one actor to the ground with a gunshot injury, he pursued the other actor. The victim then returned into the place of business. As he re-entered the premise, he clearly assessed the threat level of the actor on the ground. The victim determined that the threat level was such that he could safely, and without any evident concern for his person, turn his back to the actor while he walked to retrieve the secondary weapon. He returned to the actor on the ground calmly, without trepidation, carefully positioned his weapon, and discharged several more rounds into a threat that 'appears', by circumstantial observation, to have already been neutralized.

If the worst case were to be assumed, . . . I am not fully comfortable with this shoot.

 

[9x23]

(C) Delusional - definitely!

t165 - Yep, delusional without a doubt! You would have to be after serving as a LEO in a hell hole for 12 years! I was retired as a result of numerous injuries incurred in the line of duty. I served as a homicide investigator which should tell you that I was after-the-fact in all my cases.

However, as a uniformed patrol officer I had the good fortune to survive several shootouts. So I know first hand about adrenaline production in the most serious of situations! For me the original scenes played at light speed, but the replays were always in slow motion - giving me lots to think about.

The public defenders office in my county had the best defense attorneys - bar none and the highest morale of any that I've ever seen. Much to the chagrin of my peers I dated a public defender and had the utmost respect for her. Ironically, she became a judge and brought a zeal with her to the court that struck fear in the hearts of the guilty! Go figure!.....9x23

 

[t165]

I was never involved in a actual gunfight as a LEO. That would surely have raised the adrenaline level. And the tense situations I was involved always had me second guessing myself about what I did wrong and what I should have done to handle the situation better. It's easy to sit and second guess another's actions but when the **** hits the fan you have to make immediate decisions...hopefully the right ones.

Law enforcement is a young man's game...at least at the street cop level. I started my own business 5 years ago but if the economy does not improve I may have to return to it in some form. It's all I know other than the car business.

My wife is an IRS agent. My hometown is notorious for corruption. The crooked officials may have been able to control local/state law enforcement to an acceptable degree but the sight of her made them pee their pants. It didn't help that I made no secret I would go above their heads to get things done. In the last 25 years my little town of Vincennes Indiana has had a mayor and police chief arrested by the FBI. And an elected sitting prosecutor sent to prison. And other incidents which I should not disclose for various reasons. For everyone you knock down there is always another to take their place...frustrating!

Good luck in retirement. I ship some of my vehicles to Mississippi. I also used to visit friends in Cornith (spelling?) Mississippi.

 

[t165]

OOPS! Sorry about getting off-topic all.

 

[evan price]

From what I saw on the video- and no, I can't see the guy on the ground any more than anybody else did- but it seems the pharmacist certainly did not seem to be in exigent circumstance with regard to fear for his life when he came back and shot the guy on the floor. I could understand if he was going back to see how he was, then the guy did somehting so the pharmacist jumped back and like "AHH!" started shooting. That's not what I saw. He rather calmly shot him a few more times on the floor.

The coroner report I saw said that he had been incapacitated from the head shot and was unconscious and the chest shots killed him. In light of the fact that the pharmacist's story contains an out-and-out falsehood with regard to when he got the second gun, I would hazard a guess that this situation is not as good for him than it might have been if he had stopped after the first shot.

 

[Master Blaster]

If you want a nut to chew on, consider this. Why is it we have thousands of imagery and a few of the 9-11 vs the NYC and in PA towers and only have a little parking gate camera shot of the one at the Pentagon?

They probably went to all the places with camera shot of that pentagon and confisicated the tapes and sunk them deep. Might be 50 years before they see light of day again.

No video because surveillence cameras, point at doorways and the ground where people are walking, not at the sky where pigeons and planes are flying.

 

[runrabbitrun]

Yea the Pentagon has only one camera in the parking lot.

Right lol

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Hey runrabbitrun, you'd save yourself a lot of typing if you would just add "Lol, LMAO" at the beginning of your existing sig line, since you type that on every single post, without fail.

 

[ants]

Question for all my sharp-eyed friends

Examining the video, I see the 14-year-old kid enter the store with gun drawn.

The 16-year-old genius follows a few seconds later. Just 3 feet into the store, he suddenly realizes that he forgot his disguise. He dips his head down (probably so he won't be recognized) and gets his disguise. He struggles to put it on, then steps deeper into the store. As he pulls his ski mask over his face, getting it all messed up, he keeps his hands up at head level while he straightens the mask. He turns toward the pharmacist, still pulling on his mask with both hands. Then he gets struck by a bullet and goes down. We never see him again.

Up to that point, we never see him with a gun. The prosecutor, David Prater, stated last week when announcing charges that the kid on the ground didn't have a gun. I only saw him say that once. There is a video of the DA saying that on the Oklahoman.

Can any of you confirm that? The initial shot is fully justified whether he had a gun or not. But if the prosecutor is right, did Einstein on the ground have a gun when he was finished off?

 

[ants]

http://newsok.com//article/3372941?custom_click=rss

If my link works right, there is a second video from the store. It does not show the kid on the ground. It's a second camera at a different viewpoint showing the same scene.

You may have to let the video on the link run its course, then a new selection of related videos appears at the bottom of the view screen. Click on the one with the DA's statement.

On this video, the District Attorney states that the dead suspect was not armed, and was not trying to get up at the time the pharmacist finished him off.

 

[vicdotcom]

Up to that point, we never see him with a gun. The prosecutor, David Prater, stated last week when announcing charges that the kid on the ground didn't have a gun. I only saw him say that once. There is a video of the DA saying that on the Oklahoman.

Did the second robber have a gun? That would still count. And even if the second robber didnt have a gun already drawn, when you are getting robbed like that with masks and all, I wouldnt think you need to wait for them to draw, the act alone is enough to be a threat to your life. I mean what else are they going to rob a store with? Their voices?vOr waving their fingers arround?

The first shot still looks like a good shoot. The rest still looks like execution/revenge.

 

[DammitBoy]

The 16-year-old genius follows a few seconds later. Just 3 feet into the store, he suddenly realizes that he forgot his disguise. He dips his head down (probably so he won't be recognized) and gets his disguise. He struggles to put it on, then steps deeper into the store. As he pulls his ski mask over his face, getting it all messed up, he keeps his hands up at head level while he straightens the mask. He turns toward the pharmacist, still pulling on his mask with both hands. Then he gets struck by a bullet and goes down. We never see him again.

Up to that point, we never see him with a gun.

I concur, I never saw the 2nd perp with a gun at all - his hands were occupied on his head and the mask at all times until he was shot.

 

[KBintheSLC]

deleted

 

[t165]

That is odd the pharmacist shot the robber who wasn't pointing a weapon at him. Just shows how wierd things get in stressful moments. I always had a bad habit of shooting where I was looking while training on a FATS simulator. Some scenarios do not require firing your weapon (simulated weapon) but when the scenario required me to shoot I always aimed for the bad guys weapon instead of center mass. It was a habit I never really got out of even though I was chewed out more than a few times for doing it. My eyes just centered on the weapon and that is what I shot at.

Many years ago the Catholic Church had a weekly bingo game in Vincennes, Indiana at the Sacred Heart Church. A brother and sister team robbed it at gunpoint one night. They pushed some of the elderly around and injured a few. The problem was the sister (Anna Martinez) forgot to pull her mask down over her face after entering the bingo room. Her brother (Tony Gonterman) had to yell at her to cover her face. She was so nervous she just forgot. Unfortunately for them Anna's court appointed attorney (John Sievers) was volunteering to work the bingo game as an assistant that night. Anna had a history of petty crimes prior to the robbery attempt and Mr. Sievers was representing her on these. We collected statements, a photo lineup on the spot and executed search warrants and within a few hours this robbery was all wrapped up and the suspects arrested. If she had just pulled her mask over her face we may have never caught them. Just for the record John Sievers is the current prosecutor in Knox County Indiana and is doing a good job...being the victim of a gun related crime probably made him a better prosecutor.