Bigger bullet better?

[Fishman777]

So, here is my question.

As a woods backup, what would you prefer:

255 grain, hardcast, flat nose, .45 caliber bullet moving around 925 fps. 11 rounds

200 grain, hardcast, flat nose, .40 caliber bullet moving around 1100 fps. 16 rounds

I'm going to get .45 colt Redhawk next year, but I need another autoloader first.

Help me to decide between the two options listed above.

 

[Skylerbone]

If you're meaning to protect yourself from large predators like bear, neither of those is overkill. In fact, at double the weight and velocity (I know that's not possible in those calibers) it's still not overkill.

The goal is of course penetration since you're not likely to knock him down and he's going to outrun you for sure. Don't count on unloading on him, at best you'll get 3-4 shots off so they better count.

I would look into solid copper at high velocity for penetration and pray whatever it is fears loud noises. You may wish to stagger loads between two different bullets as some suggest (hp, solid, hp, solid) but again, bears run twice as fast as we do on a good day and with 4 second 40 times you won't have time for any mag changes.

 

[Paladin7]

I'm in agreement on penetration and in the worst case scenario limited shots off before you are mauled.

I think the platform is also a key determining factor.

I'm assuming by .40 at that bullet weight and speed, your talking a 10MM. The 10MM can launch a 200 gr TMJ at 1200 fps 16 times... comfortably without over pressure concerns. I think it is an excellent choice for what you are after, especially in a Glock 20. Portability will be better as well than any of the offerings in 45 that I am aware of.

The .45 Auto numbers you quote look a bit high to me. Not sure you can do that in a standard 1911/Glock/etc. platform. It would be interesting to know what you had in mind on that?

Normally, I like the bigger bullet, especially for dangerous game, but the 10MM in a package like the Glock 20 wins for me in performance and portability. It is hard to beat.

 

[Confederate]

200-grain, hardcast, flat nose, .40 caliber bullet moving around 1100 fps, if you can achieve it.

If you're going up against bear, shoot at the nose or mouth, not the head. The skull doesn't lie directly in front of the brain -- the mouth does.

For black bear, don't underestimate a good knife. Daniel Boone kilt a b'ar with a knife and I know of one instance where a man successfully fought off a black bear with a 4-inch folding knife, saving his girlfriend (the Cold Steel Voyager series is an excellent choice).

A revolver is still my favorite, but if you can handle the bullet placement, you need a round that will go deep.

 

[dom1104]

Obviously, a pocket knife is the best option.

/nods.

 

[gofastman]

find out which one you shoot better and take that!

I think Id take the one with more rounds.

both loads have effectively the same sectional density, they both should offer decent penetration.

my opinion is that if you hit the good stuff it doesn't matter if you have a .45-70 or a
.357 - Neither is gonna do a whole lot of good if you miss the vitals

 

[BlindJustice]

Question for the O.P.

you refer to an AUtoloader - is this going to be a .45 ACP?

if it's a .45 ACP that's a pretty heavy load with the 255 gr. bullet
& you may have issues with feeding & overall length

I have some .45 ACP & .45 AUto rim with the leadhead hardcast
200 gr. SWC @ 1,000 FPS for my S&W 625 ALso, Double Tap carry
load is .45 ACP +P 200 gr Speer Gold DOt @ 1125 FPS. for my 1911.
I've also used the Leadhead 225 gr. TC-BB which has a large flat face to it's
profile around 940 FPS

Randall

 

[KBintheSLC]

200 grain, hardcast, flat nose, .40 caliber bullet moving around 1100 fps. 16 rounds

That would be my choice. Stuff those in a G20 and you will be a happy hiker.

200-grain, hardcast, flat nose, .40 caliber bullet moving around 1100 fps, if you can achieve it.

Why would that be hard to achieve? It is a pretty moderate 10mm loading... you can go even hotter if you choose.

 

[Ben86]

For black bear, don't underestimate a good knife. Daniel Boone kilt a b'ar with a knife and I know of one instance where a man successfully fought off a black bear with a 4-inch folding knife, saving his girlfriend (the Cold Steel Voyager series is an excellent choice).

A man and a goat can have kids, I've seen it!

A knife fight with a bear? I just don't see that going well at all. I guess it would be better than no weapon.

If you are carrying to defend against bears carry the biggest, heaviest, fastest cartridge that is practical for you. If the bear is not completely intent on slaughtering you a .45 or .40 may do. I'd stick with lead cast, or fmj.

 

[Fishman777]

Thanks for the feedback...

The autoloader just needs to cover me for Midwest and South East outdoor activities. I'm going to get the Redhawk for when I go out west and to Canada. That won't happen at least until next year, so I'm not in a rush to get a big bore revolver.

The 255 grain load is actually a Buffalo Bore load. Out of a 5" barreled 1911, it can get up to a 960 fps velocity. It's a pretty crazy .45 acp load. The gun I'm thinking about has a 4.5" barrel, so I guess that it would probably lose a bit of velocity. The BB website claims that the round has identical dimensions as a normal .45 acp round.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=214

The 200 grain load is a 40 s&w load from doubletap.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/ca...ucts_id=210&osCsid=g2e50158vkkmaejfpqb5vqn1g6

The primary purpose of this next gun will be a home defense gun, but it will double as a lighter woods carry gun in areas that aren't too wild. Definitely no Grizzlies where I'd be headed.

I've already got a 9mm autoloader, which will be my wife's gun in a defense scenario. I currently have a .357 magnum, which is my home defense gun. I am going to sell the .357 to finance this next purchase. I want to replace the revolver with either a .40 s&w or a .45 acp as a home defense gun. I want more capacity, but I also want a decent amount of power so that the gun would have a little more flexibility outside of the home. This second autoloader will also moonlight as a "woods" gun in areas that don't have grizzlies.

I will eventually buy a .45 colt revolver, next spring. I don't really want to build a huge arsenal. There are too many other things that I need to throw my money at. I want to cover all of the bases, with four guns. I've got a great .22, a great 9mm, and want either a .45 or a .40 s&w, and then a .45 colt Redhawk. At this time, I'm not interested in keeping the .357. I love the .357, but I like .45 colt revolvers more.

I'm just a little uncertain about whether to get a .45 or a .40.

 

[IMTHDUKE]

I really don't see the problem in goin up against a bar....here's the weapon I recommend....

 

[Skylerbone]

Fishman, I can save you a lot of money right now. If you're headed to Canada, you won't be getting across that boarder (legally) with that pistol. The few that are allowed must be declared (as do all firearms) and the only justifiable reason for which you won't be refused is competition. In those cases they prefer you mail it ahead of time. You must also take all valuables to a customs agent for documentation or our friendly neighbors to the north will tax your hind quarters off when you re-enter the US. The form has a blank for "protection from wildlife" but you'll still be refused. I spoke with several officials in Canada about the subject at length as I was hoping to bring my 40S&W along as a last ditch bear attack defender.

Start planning ahead for any Canadian trip, especially one involving firearms. If hunting, you'll need a WIN number in addition to your license. My state requires hunter safety for those born after 1972. As my father was grandfathered in, he never took the course (Army combat vet and retired LEO of 30+years). He opted to go through training just to have the card for verification along with his present hunting license. Any non-resident hunter must provide proof of training or a hunting license issued by his/her state in order to hunt.

The weapons/gear inspection by customs is to verify what you are taking across the boarder for tax purposes. Bring binoculars, scope, firearm, rangefinder, etc. in to be recorded or Canada will tax you for them as if they were purchased in Canada. Make an appointment for the inspection and ask about special proceedures for the firearm. Our local office is headquartered at the airport so bringing a firearm in is an important consideration.

You must also check with Canadian Customs (RMP) when you cross and declare weapons at that time, important if the station you're at doesn't have a 24/7 agent available, especially if it's 2 a.m. on a Saturday.

Sorry about the wall of text but it could save you from being turned back or having to mail your pistol back to your (now that you're on vacation) empty house.

 

[Manco]

I'm just a little uncertain about whether to get a .45 or a .40.

If woods carry with the two specific loads that you mentioned is the deciding factor, then I'd lean toward the .40, at least on a theoretical basis (which is pretty much all that most of us have). With practically equal sectional density and higher velocity, the .40 bullet would theoretically penetrate more deeply, which is an advantage in and of itself. And since its meplat appears to be similar in width to that of the .45 bullet in question (or perhaps even wider, as well as sharper-edged, which is an advantage), in theory it should crush just as wide a channel of tissue while expending less energy on merely pushing additional tissue out of its way (generating less of a useless temporary cavity); since the .40's penetration should be deeper, this means that it causes more tissue damage in total, due to greater efficiency. The fact that .40 allows for higher round capacity in addition to theoretically superior per-round effectiveness--given the best available load for woods carry in each caliber, anyway--sure makes .40 seem like the obvious choice here.

I'm sure there are those who would dispute this theoretical argument, however, and I wouldn't blame them, as it is quite well known and proven over the years that a hard-cast 255 grain .45 bullet moving at a decent velocity can be quite formidable even against large animals. That's basically near the high end of Old West .45 Colt performance with a full 40 grain load of black powder and a relatively long handgun barrel. Normally .45 ACP need not apply here, but Buffalo Bore has somehow managed to squeeze such performance out of it. That said, I just couldn't find a way to reason or justify why it is superior or even equal to the .40 load in question, for this specific application, so there you go.

 

[Fishman777]

Thanks, again...

Thanks for the information on Canada. I didn't realize that it is so difficult to get a gun into the country. Too bad.

I think that I'll go with the .40 s&w. I was kind of leaning towards the forty for a couple of other reasons, but if it is even comparable in terms of penetration, I think that it is the better choice for me overall.

 

[Manco]

I think that I'll go with the .40 s&w. I was kind of leaning towards the forty for a couple of other reasons, but if it is even comparable in terms of penetration, I think that it is the better choice for me overall.

It's hard to go wrong with either, in my opinion, which usually makes the choice difficult, of course. When in doubt over two good options, it's usually best to go with your gut, or else it may come back to bug you later.

By the way, I forgot to mention that the 255 grain .45 ACP+P load does have an advantage in momentum, which probably more or less evens its potential out with the .40 S&W load for woods carry. It's tough to call. Both will do in a pinch against all but the very largest animals on the continent.

 

[Wispa]

Obviously, a pocket knife is the best option.

/nods.

Yeah, make mine a folder.

 

[Old Scratch]

My hat pin beats your folding pocket knife hands down. It has way more FPE.

I use 14 grains of Blue Dot and a Federal Magnum Large Rifle primer.

Don't make me get outta my chair and git my pitchfork.