Bill to revise Hughes amendment and other NFA laws

[General Geoff]

However we should probably not involve the NRA, just a thought on my part but they seem to be indifferent about this, not that anyone has suggested that to date.

The NRA is not so much pro-gun as they are pro-status-quo.

I'm not, I was merely thinking of a way to... compromise with anti-gun freedom politicians.

Any so-called compromise is simply further infringement of our rights. That's not compromise, that's them winning.


If a guy comes up to you and says he wants to murder you, do you suggest that he just cut up your face a bit as a compromise?

 

[Ohioan]

I'm not, I was merely thinking of a way to... compromise with anti-gun freedom politicians. As much as I'd like to pretend they're not here, they are and if we are to get the registry reopened someway we may have to be willing to compromise, as much as I'd prefer not. Think about a stream and suddenly a rock is in the middle of it. Does the stream stop flowing altogether and break the rock apart? No, it goes around it.

Dude, your logic is seriously flawed. There is no compromise with these people. They want us to have NO firearms. They're not happy until we have NO firearms. The only compromise they will support is one that would allow them to take a firearms at the drop of a hat, or a swipe of the pen.

No, the stream doesn't just part around the rock. The stream pushes that rock on down the stream bed until the rock is either worn to dust, or spit off on the side of the stream.

 

[Ingsoc75]

Any pending legislation this year that is big enough to slip in 922(o) repeal?

 

[Ranb]

I am not interested in more M16's, 1919's, UZI's ect being added to the registry.

With people like this in the USA, we sure as hell do not need enemies. I wonder if other gun-owners [edited by taliv] will be happy to see similar restrictions being placed on other types of firearms just to help their bottom line?

I have been battling ignorance and fear for the last three years trying to get firearm restrictions eased in my home state of WA. It is the attitudes of my fellow gun owners that are the biggest obstacle.

Ranb

 

[mboylan]

I don't think anything has a chance with either party unless it includes a big registry fee in addition to the $200 tax. Even a $2000 fee would make an M16 $7000 or more cheaper than it is now.

They just don't trust us with automatic weapons.

PS. I know you can get Sendra RRs forabout $8K. I'm talking about M-16s.

 

[rogertc1]

State Law will stand in the way...

 

[CarlosDJackal]

1. Reopen the registry for civilians

- Sounds good to me. Event hough it will bring the price of my one and only Class 3 item down, it will allow me to purchase and own more.

2. Abolish the tax stamp and establish an Automatic Firearms license, which would cost 400-1000 USD lifetime and would allow for unlimited possession of Automatics (not including burst weapons). ( this would be cheaper for people with multiple MGS)

- Not just no, but HELL NO!! Like we need more licensing.

3. Set a new legal designation for 3-round burst weapons, allowing their possession without above license, instead a $100 tax stamp for each weapon

- Why? Do we really need to add another category to F/A firearms?

4. In order to apply or possess above weapons, you will be submitted to a 14 day background check and wait period, in addition to a series of forms detailing penalties for committing a crime with the weapon.

- Not sure that this matters. Most Concealed handgun Permits allow for 30-60 days to process the background investigations. It's not like we are talking about something that you must have now for self-defense. I have no problem waiting the same amount of time to be able to own more Class 3 firearms. I think a maximum of 90-days is acceptible.

If someone where to change the Hughes Amendment, the first step would should simply be just the outright repeal of this illegally-obtained amendment. But in reality, the first step to such an act is to convince non-Class 3 owners to accept these items as they do their own firearms.

Case in point: How many Gun clubs actually allow the use of F/A firearms in their facility? ANd of those who do, how many put a lot more restrictions on their use? Until we are considered "equals" by other gun owners, the chances of the rest of society doing so is pretty much nil. JM2CW.

 

[clarence222]

Speaking for myself, I would love to lose the value of my current FAs to be able to buy many more

 

[Zundfolge]

Because a 3-round burst weapon is not anymore dangerous than a semi auto, it should not be lumped with automatics

I would argue that FA and Burst are both LESS "dangerous" than semi auto since we're looking at the difference between aimed fire and spray (and running out of ammo a lot faster). Also note that our soldiers' M4s spend most of their time in SA (which is where they're most effective).

But the bigger problem here is that you're falling for the idea that the NFA is about "Safety" (or even crime).

The NFA was drafted for two reasons:

1. The Fed.Gov was deathly afraid of being removed forcibly because of the rise of communist labor movement and the problem of thousands upon thousands of angry veterans coming back to finish what the Bonus Marchers failed to do
2. With the end of Prohibition they didn't want to have to lay off all those ATF agents.

The best tactic would be to simply repeal the Hughes amendment outright ... not make the system more complex.

 

[Dreamcast270mhz]

Here is a new idea:

Get a pro-MG senator to slip this into an important bill:

All machine guns owned within the United States, manufactured before 1986 are now transferable to civilians and able to be registered If you look at the Hughes, it seems it could be interpreted in that manner anyways.

 

[kayak-man]

The idea of a one time tax stamp is good if you plan on owning multiple NFA items, but for those of us who are probably only ever going to invest in A supressor, or ONE SBS, I can't speak for everyone, but I feel like I'd be getting the short end of the stick.

I'm fine with the tax stamp for now, because those are the rules we have to play by, but I'm not against seeing it dissapear. If you could have an either/or option - $200 tax stamp for each gun, or $300 for unlimited, that would be allright.

I think the first step would be to get the machine gun registry open, or just repeal the ban. Theres got to be at least one senator/congressman that would sponsor the bill.

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

 

[Dreamcast270mhz]

@kayak-man

Perhaps, but considering most politicians are blood sucking morons (Yes MOST of them) we need some ground to stand on. As I personally do not own any NFA, nothing directly affects me but the fact I may someday (inheritance for example) wants me to get this law changed. So far as gauging the forum here we have some problems:

People don't want their investments to be lost (too bad so sad, all investments carry RISK!)

Many are not willing to support a bill that doesn't do JUST what they want it to. As I said, a river goes AROUND a rock.

Many are paranoid of gun control proponents ( They think they want to take away all their firearms, legitimate concern but not likely.)

Nobody wants the NFA procedure changed.

So let me approach this as logically as possible:

In order to get the MG registry open again, we will likely have to raise the tax stamp (MG prices will drop however so the effect could be marginal)

The proponents of gun control are not going to go bye bye, they will always be there (One cannot exist without the other, yin yang)

Furthermore they will not take our guns away as it will NEVER pass. Paranoia dispelled.

Finally, by saying a compromise is rights infringement...

That is partially true, but because the bill of rights is a matter of interpretation, and how screwed up the USA is anyway, let me just stop here and quote one of my favorites:

We're not tools of the government or anyone else. Fighting was the only thing... the only thing I was good at, but... at least I always fought for what I believed in.

That is all I will actively contribute to this...

 

[Rail Driver]

However my machine guns have become my 401k.

This is why people that own more than one or two machine guns will not be very likely to vote for anything reopening the registry or repealing the NFA and GCA. The tens of thousands of dollars they've spent acquiring those machine guns is now worth the couple thousand they can get for "just another used machine gun". While it makes sense if you understand anything about human nature, it's kind of sad if you ask me, especially considering anyone with the funds to purchase more than one or two machine guns is probably fairly wealthy and/or relatively influential.

 

[Mike OTDP]

On the other hand, most of the big money in NFA is in World War 2 firearms, Thompsons, and the like.

And if someone REALLY wanted to play games, propose that instead of assessing the normal 15% excise tax, full-auto arms pay a flat $1,000 excise tax for manufacturing. (That's in addition to the transfer tax)

 

[General Geoff]

While it makes sense if you understand anything about human nature, it's kind of sad if you ask me, especially considering anyone with the funds to purchase more than one or two machine guns is probably fairly wealthy and/or relatively influential.

I would venture to say that those who own title II transferable machine guns, are more likely to recognize that freedom is more important than any sum of money. Furthermore, investing in artificially scarce items seems like a poor business decision to me.

 

[zignal_zero]

Sounds good to me. Event hough it will bring the price of my one and only Class 3 item down, it will allow me to purchase and own more

THANK YOU!!!! this is (what i believe to be) the right attitude!!!!

when the ass ban of '94 was brewing, i knew it stood to double or possibly triple the price of some of my tools. i was still VERY STRONGLY opposed to it. i care more about OUR freedoms than i do the current market value of my equipment. when the ass ban sunset in 04, i lost money and was happy to do so. i consider it a small price to pay, for liberty, compared to what others have sacrificed

 

[-v-]

1. Reopen the registry for civilians

I think that's a solid goal and should be the only thrust for a while.

As the saying goes: "How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time". If we want the NFA abolished, we got to go about it one step at a time, not a slam-dunk victory. The latter will never happen. As our rights were slowly eroded over time, so we must slowly erode the restrictions and infirngments in turn. Legislative inertia is a bitch.

 

[alsaqr]

Get a pro-MG senator to slip this into an important bill:

Is there such an animal as a pro-MG senator?

 

[Justin]

Having multiple MG's and a sizeable investment. I am not interested in more M16's, 1919's, UZI's ect being added to the registry.

With all due respect, you're part of the problem. That you'd publicly admit that causes me to wonder if you're attempting to troll THR, or just so culturally tone-deaf that you have no understanding of the implications of what you've posted.

 

[Justin]

Dreamcast, you're going about this in completely the wrong way.

1.) You're proposing things for which there is no significant political motivation to change.
2.) You're trying to build in compromises with the anti-rights people before you've even talked to them. Your proposals all negotiate from a position of weakness, and even assuming the political will to modify the laws regarding NFA items did exist your proposals would end up causing more harm than good.

 

[gyvel]

The NFA was drafted for two reasons:

Actually, there was an unspoken third reason and that was ethnic prejudice. Roosevelt was an elitist and very patrician in his personal life.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

However my machine guns have become my 401k. Just something to consider as you rally the troops. We all want to be with you. BTW I am ok with the waiting and the stamps as they are. Most guys that drop $12k on a M16 and wait 3mos to 12mos to get it aren't committing crimes with it.

That's a very risky investment. A swipe of the pen could just as easily (probably more easily) make your 401k worth $0 as it could drop it to pre-ban levels. If your interest in machine guns is mostly monetary I'd get out of the NFA game.
Your statement makes it sound as if your rights are for sale as long as there's a return on investment. How much would you give up your 1st Amendment rights for? Your 4th Amendment?

 

[tbd1966]

One of the biggest issues with opening up the markets again for MG's is you have a lot of MG owners who would be against it.

The values for MG's have been artificually inflated by the increasing rarity of the weapons themselves. As time has gone on, fewer and fewer of these weapons remain in circulation so the price has gone up. A brand new select fire M4 cost under 1500.00 but if you want a civilian version legally registered it will cost you north of $10,000. If you repeal the laws restricting the ownership then the prices equalize and the current owners of MG's loose their shirts.

I'm for repealing the laws but the politicians will never want to weather the emotional firestorm associated with its repeal and the current owners of MG's will dread the losses they will incur.

 

[Ranb]

Ironic; the anti-gun machine gun owner.

Ranb

 

[swwyo]

1. You must get a sponsor, either in the house or senate.
2. It must pass committee, probably judiciary - look at the some of the fruit loop names on that. Remember committee can add to it, take away or change the wording.
3. It must pass three readings in the house or senate before it goes to the other side.
4. After passing the house or senate it goes to the other judiciary committee, where they can kill it, change it, or add to it. (none of those things are good for gun owners)
5. Then it must pass three readings, before it goes to you know who.
6. Obumer get's it and checkmate the bill is vetoed.

Not likely to happen this year!

If you want to pass a law get rid of the stupid tax, background, etc., etc.,

And if your afraid of losing an investment because MG's become transferable and no longer cost $10,000 plus, well that's kind of like giving up freedom for security, now isn't it.