Black powder and Pyrodex

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tacxted

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I have another question.

So, if pyrodex is a black powder sustitute could it not be combined with real black powder?

From what I understand most people prefer using real black powder. They say it is much easier to ignite and to achive sure fire in their flintlocks.

Some people also say pyrodex burns cleaner, and is easier to find, but ignition can be difficult.

So why not a mix. Say a 1:3 ratio BP to pyrodex, or whatever ratio needed to archive sure fire, while keeping cost and availability in mind.

Reminder: I don't own or have ever shot any muzzleloader, or used BP or pyrodex. I want to get into muzzle loading flintlocks.
 
No. Mixing the two will lead to unpredictable ignition/burning.

If you are using a flintlock, stay with black.... period.
 
When the temperature gets way beyond cold out in the woods, you'll want the real stuff. Especially for a flintlock ignition.
 
Did it by accident, dumped a small amount of pyro into a container of black but the amount was miniscule, 20 or 30 grains of pyro into a few hundred of black. No adverse reaction that I could see. But would see no reason to mix the two otherwise.
 
If you are going to shoot a flintlock, you pretty well have to have real black.
I have read of people using black to prime the pan and duplex load the barrel, with a main charge of Pyrodex, but where is the gain there?

Anecdote that will terrify the Internet Timid Shooter:
A friend had an irresponsible brother who "borrowed" his new TC "Hawken". Brother had an attack of helpfulness and bought a can of Pyrodex to replace what he shot up. Unfortunately, what he had shot up was black and when he dumped the Pyrodex into the powder horn, he generated a random mixture. My pal, being a waste not, want not type, stirred it up thorougly and went shooting. It shot like a dream. Velocity on my primitive chronograph was high and uniform and accuracy was excellent. But I'm not telling YOU to try it. We are more careful now.

(The next time he "borrowed" it, he fired a ball stuck halfway down a fouled barrel and ringed it. TC made it good with their compliments, but it never shot quite as well as with the original barrel, SN 1250.)
 
I can understand not wanting to mix the two from a safety standpoint, but if pyrodex is a true subsitiue then where is the issue?

My question is directed at the cost savings of using more pyrodex than black powder. I've been searching and still havnt found a price for one pound of real black powder yet, or even a online store to buy black powder.

With the scarcity, and my assumed high price of black powder, I'm surprised everyone doesn't mix.
 
I tried Pyrodex FF many years ago and I found accuracy to be inconsistent and ignition problems that were to big to overcome with #11 caps. I shoot a White Super 91 50 caliber and I read an article by the manufacturer where several shooters were using Pyrodex FFF in my rifle by placing about 10 grains of black powder in the barrel and following it with the Pyrodex FFF charge. The article said it improved ignition. I tried this method but quickly went back to FF black powder because I experienced the same problems as before.
 
Powder, Inc in Clarksville, AR 877-833-1799 / www.powderinc.com

GOEX FG, FFG, FFFG, FFFFG,

5 lb case minimum $122.00 delivered including shipping & HazMat or $24.40/lb
10 lb case minimum $190.05 " " " " or $19.05/lb
25 lb case minimum $385.00 " " " " or $15.40/lb

The black powder substitutes are geared to the hunting shooters. Target shooters who have a local source or will pool an order together to buy 5 lbs, 10 lbs or 25 lbs will use black powder and never go back to the substitutes.

Black powder ignites at 700 degrees F, and substitutes ignite at 1100 degrees F
 
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tacxted said:
I can understand not wanting to mix the two from a safety standpoint, but if pyrodex is a true subsitiue then where is the issue?

My question is directed at the cost savings of using more pyrodex than black powder. I've been searching and still havnt found a price for one pound of real black powder yet, or even a online store to buy black powder.

With the scarcity, and my assumed high price of black powder, I'm surprised everyone doesn't mix.
Click to expand...
Pyrodex is bulkier than black, and it builds much more pressure than black. You can use a priming charge of black under the main charge of Pyrodex to make a flintlock work, but that's rather a pain in the backside out in the woods while hunting..
You may want to pose your question to Hogdons, they'll have all the good answers.
Black powder is not hard to get and even just buying 5 lb lots from Powder inc. comes out the same price as Pyrodex off the shelf at the local store.
 
As Jim Watson said, "Pyrodex is not a true substitute" none of the subs are. Substitute refers to the fact that a given volume of the sub more or less equals the same power of the same volume of black powder.
I use and shoot subs and black powder and most subs shoot cleaner (pyrodex not so much). Depending on the gun and if I am hunting/plinking at the range I use the powder that is best for the need.
 
I just spent last Saturday at the Range where when I walked on, I was immediately accosted by
a good friend who asked "...can you help? `Can't get my percussion 50cal to fire....
I may have to pull the ball...."

We spent ten minutes futzing around with getting/ensuring the flash channel was clean --
No Go with any of a half dozen caps and I know that channel was clear..
Then I finally dumped ~5 gr of 4Fg into cleanout screw channel, tightened things down and...

Whuuuuoooooommmp..... out comes the 50cal patched ball AND 50gr of pyrodex... unburned. :scrutiny:

Go get and use the real stuff.
You will never look back.**




** (Conversely, Trying to use Pyrodex in a flinter will drive you insane.)


.
 
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It seems black is the way to go.

Is 2f what most flintlock gun use in the barrel and pan?

If it is, does pyrodex use the same "F" rating, and is it the equivalent?

Thanks for the replies BTW.
 
Muzzle loaders are like women, you never know what the outcome will be until you try em out.

That being said I would recommend starting with 3F for the charge. Use 4F for priming as it's faster ignition and you need all the help you can get keeping your front sight on the target with the delay.

Don't know about "substitutes" as I have never had any reason to consider trying them.
 
I contacted the Company and they wrote back that I could replace real BP charges 1:1 with Pyrodex.
However, there is conflicting information on the can saying that with Flintlocks, reduce the charge by 5 grains,
This may be due to the different grade of powder that a big flintlock rifle needs.Pyrodex is a finer powder.
In my area it is VERY difficult to buy real BP but pyrodex is available at Bass Pros and sometimes they even have the real stuff!
I'm stuck with Pyrodex and truely, it's not bad stuff! It burns clean, sleans up easilly with Windex and water and shoots very consistantly from my revolvers.
Glad they invented it!
 
You will need two cans of powder, 2f for the main charge and 4f for the priming pan. I know the common internet wisdom these days say you don't need 4f for priming, but that just depends on if you're looking for accuracy or not.. 4f will give you faster lock time and better ignition.
 
You can sort of do what you're saying but you don't mix them. If you're low on real black powder for whatever reason and need to stretch it, you can use real black in the pan and for the main charge you would dump in 5 grains of real black and then dump in the pydrodex (remove five grains). I believe on either the pyrodex or the 777 site they say you can do this.

BUT this is NOT an improvement over using just black, it's just something you can do if you are in a pinch.

It's called a duplex load. If you read old books you can find talk about duplex loads using regular smokeless and black powder. This apparently was a historic thing in the 1950s because you couldn't get decent black powder. These days it's considered a) risky and b) pointless and nobody does it.

PS Assuming your state doesn't have some kind of limit on the amount of black powder you can have I'd just put in a big Powder Inc order as mentioned above. Get 10 pounds, order a mix of 2F and 3F and one pound of 4F and you'll pretty much be set. It'll be cheaper than substitutes, work better, and the cleanup is a total non-issue, that's more of a marketing thing than a reality.
 
Honestly, you will want to toss the substitutes after shooting good black powder. Triple-especially with a flintlock.

In general, 3Fg is a good all-around powder. For priming, if you can get it, Swiss Null-B (about 7F) is the best available. Lightning-fast ignition. Just about everybody shooting flintlocks and matchlocks at the International level uses it.
 
It's called a duplex load. If you read old books you can find talk about duplex loads using regular smokeless and black powder. This apparently was a historic thing in the 1950s because you couldn't get decent black powder. These days it's considered a) risky and b) pointless and nobody does it.
Click to expand...

Duplexing actually started in the early days of smokeless. The primers of the time mostly used with blackpowder would not reliably ignite so they dropped a small charge of black under the smokeless so they could set the stuff off. Later on duplexing became a small (up to no more than 10% of the charge weight) bit of smokeless and then fill the case with black. This makes for no barrel fouling, but does raise pressures and has been known to take an original gun or two apart..
 
Later on duplexing became a small (up to no more than 10% of the charge weight) bit of smokeless and then fill the case with black.
Click to expand...

I assume you accidently switched black and smokeless around.

I'm assuming this technique was only used in firearms designed for smokeless use. Which brings me to another question, is there any safe way to use smokeless in a lyman gpr?
 
tacxted said:
I assume you accidently switched black and smokeless around.

I'm assuming this technique was only used in firearms designed for smokeless use. Which brings me to another question, is there any safe way to use smokeless in a lyman gpr?
Click to expand...
No nothing switched.

And absolutely NO, NONE, NOT ONE DAMN BIT , of smokeless in a muzzleloader in any way shape or form.
 
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