Black Powder Cannon as Destructive Device

[Dain Bramage]

A Spokane man has been convicted of a federal felony for constructing a black powder cannon. Color me ignorant, but I thought that as long as it fired solid shot, black powder guns were not subject to NFA. Perhaps there are facts pertaining to the case that were not reported.

Link to the story:
https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2021/jul/06/garfield-man-sentenced-to-2-years-in-federal-priso/

From the BATFE website:

Are muzzleloading cannons considered destructive devices?

Generally, no. Muzzleloading cannons manufactured in or before 1898 (and replicas thereof) that are not capable of firing fixed ammunition are considered antiques and not subject to the provisions of either the Gun Control Act (GCA) or National Firearms Act (NFA).

[26 U.S.C. 5845; 27 CFR 479.11]

 

[twarr1]

Was it a replica of a pre- 1898 cannon? The BATFE has pretty wide latitude in determining what is or what is not covered by the GCA and NFA.

 

[Dain Bramage]

I'm waiting for the hook in this case, and if it's just "it didn't look like a Napoleon", that would seem very trivial.

 

[usaral63]

By that logic my .54 Hawken replica is a DD!

 

[WestKentucky]

Biggest potential issues I see with it is if they didn’t use a traditional ignition system, or if it has a rifled barrel. Trivial, but on the books.

 

[WestKentucky]

I will add that anything sufficient to launch a projectile at all over .50 inches in diameter is a bit on the silly side to build at home, especially something substantial like a black powder cannon. Dixie gunworks among others make and sell them cheap enough that the risk of fighting a legal battle on your own dime just seems to be too large of a risk as opposed to buying the DGW cannon and if you get arrested you implicate them and their attorneys will join in the fight quickly, and with experience, most likely a letter from ATF specifically saying that the product is legal to manufacture and sell as a replica gun.

 

[Jim Watson]

Really? There are lots of muzzleloaders of larger caliber than .50 with rifled barrels and various forms of ignition that are not DDs. Where's the dividing line?
There was a thread here about a guy who had built and shot a Whitworth field piece.

 

[243winxb]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/are-muzzleloading-cannons-considered-destructive-devices

And- https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firear...-firearms-national-firearms-act-definitions-1
M224 60 mm Lightweight Mortar (or Black Powder Cannon)?

Reading these ATF links should help answer , why convicted? Bore over 1/2". Not an antique or replica.

But then i remember the Winchester 10 Ga breech Loading Signal Cannon, . https://www.thecannonstore.com/category/winchester-cannons

 

[Jim Watson]

As shown in OP.
Either there is something about his cannon that brings it into "modern" category (Some 19th century cannons had flint and percussion locks similar to small arms of the day.)
Or the defendant and his lawyer were ignorant of the law and regulations.

 

[Duster340]

I believe the soda can sized bore diameter was the issue.

 

[Jim Watson]

Why? There are untold numbers of can caliber repro cannons out there.
What made his a Bad Gun?

 

[243winxb]

YouTube has many Can Guns & Potato Guns? The Spokane man must have made an explosive projectile to fire? Like a real mortar?

 

[H&R Glock]

how about my rifled bowling ball mortar?

 

[Jim Watson]

Not allowed in Spokane.

 

[.308 Norma]

I believe the soda can sized bore diameter was the issue.

I've literally seen hundreds of bowling balls launched from so-called "cannons," or "mortars" at mountain man rendezvous'. For that matter, every couple of hours at the rendezvous', a "mountain man" will touch off a "candy cannon" launching a few dozen pieces of wrapped salt-water taffy out there in the field for the kids to gather up.
BTW, you want to make sure the wrapper on a piece of that taffy isn't too badly burned before you pop the candy in your mouth; burnt black powder tastes awful!
At any rate, there used to be a mountain man rendezvous held every June just across the valley (about 3 miles) from where we live. We used to love hearing those cannons, mortars and black powder rifles and muskets going off, and I doubt there was anything illegal about it. If there was, the cops would have been all over it. What I do suspect is the so-called "Spokesman-Review" doesn't have the facts straight. Of course I realize that newspapers seldom make mistakes when they're reporting legalities about guns.

 

[brickeyee]

Muzzle loading weapons do not use fixed ammunition and are exempt from just about everything.
Bore diameter does not matter.

Uncle had a real ships railing cannon barrel on a repro scaled naval carriage.
It would just fire golf balls.

He also had a scale reproduction of a naval gun that was similar in caliber.

We used to shoot at washing machine boxes at 100 yards.

 

[Elkins45]

Not allowed in Spokane.

That doesn’t explain the federal involvement. ATF wouldn’t prosecute for violating a local law.

 

[Jim Watson]

There has to be something not apparent to the mass media.

 

[jmorris]

This would do it, even if the cannon was otherwise legal.



Still seem like lots of blanks to fill in.

Some of the reports say his “welfare” check was due to threats he had been making.

 

[jrmiddleton425]

The article mentions NOTHING about the gun firing using black powder, or being a muzzleloader. Do we KNOW that he didn't build a breechloading gun?

Edit: jmorris linked in the reply above mine, and the indictment charged him with possession of an explosive projectile.

 

[243winxb]

The Spokane man must have made an explosive projectile to fire? Like a real mortar?

#23 above. Like a mortar. The projectile was the problem? So it seems.

Great find, JMorris.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

Maybe he was a felon? Not sure that would matter though. Does seem odd though.

 

[Frank Ettin]

This would do it, even if the cannon was otherwise legal.

View attachment 1010297

Still seem like lots of blanks to fill in....

Another good illustration of the need to actually do some research and look for the court documents.

The indictment say nothing about the "cannon" being muzzle loading or using black powder. The indictment also alleges the unlawful possession of an unregistered destructive device -- viz., the explosive projectile.