Smokin_Gun
Member
LOL...no Sundance but I do have a story for ya at another time and place...about on a Bike.
SG
SG
Black powder is a felony
- Thread starter Zoogster
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arcticap
Member
Pyrodex is not considered to be an explosive, like smokeless it's only a hazardous flammable.
Yes you can purchase it, and people will send it to you, that does not make your actions legal.
The 5 pound amount applies to Health and Safety Code 12000 as an exemption.
The one pound legal limit is the exemption to 12101 which requires a permit to be in possession of more than 1 pound for use in shooting as a private individual.
So you can be in violation of section 12101 without being in violation of just 12000.
You can order all you want with the Hazmat fee, but it is still illegal. The shipper is just following federal law. You can still be breaking multiple CA laws.
I don't see your point.
Seperate laws with seperate criteria. Yes CA law is very complex and many people, even some businesses get it wrong unless corrected.
What you can physicaly do and what the law is according to statute are different.
You can break the law and get away with it.
By federal law that is correct.
Under CA law black powder substitutes can qualify as explosives.
For example in the Health and Safety Code section 12000 (since it is already in this thread)
For the purposes of this part, "explosives" means any
substance, or combination of substances, the primary or common
purpose of which is detonation or rapid combustion, and which is
capable of a relatively instantaneous or rapid release of gas and
heat, or any substance, the primary purpose of which, when combined
with others, is to form a substance capable of a relatively
instantaneous or rapid release of gas and heat. "Explosives"
includes, but is not limited to, any explosives as defined in Section
841 of Title 18 of the United States Code and published pursuant to
Section 555.23 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, and
any of the following:
Clearly the 'primary or common use' of a black powder substitute is as an explosive as defined here.
Also worth noting:
12020. The chief and the issuing authority, as defined in Sections
12003 and 12007, respectively, shall in their areas of jurisdiction
enforce the provisions of this part and the regulations adopted by
the State Fire Marshal pursuant to this part.
Any peace officer, as defined in Sections 830.1, 830.2, and
subdivisions (a), (e), (k), and (l) of Section 830.3 of the Penal
Code, and those officers listed in Section 830.6 of the Penal Code
while acting in the course and scope of their employment as peace
officers may enforce the provisions of this part.
They do not have to enforce it. They may enforce it on a discretionary basis.
That is a great question.
kentucky bucky
Member
I suggest they roll up that "Safety Code" and insert it in a posteriorly associated sphincter.
scrat
Member
so if i own 1lbs of bp, then my wife own one, then there is one at my dads house, one at my brothers. that they just so happen to let me use when i need. im ok
yes im stuck in California
yes im stuck in California
scrat
Member
looks like i need to load a lot more 45 colt ammo. then i wont have more than 1lbs again
KiltedClaymore
Member
mind if i thread-jack for a sec? im wondering where i can find a 25 pound keg of powder. delivery, or if its in phoenix, local pickup?
Well actualy no 'gifting' or 'delivery' of black powder is allowed, that specificly makes it not subject to the exemption set forth in section 12102 for 12101:
12102. This chapter does not apply to any possession or use of 20
pounds or less of smokeless powder, or one pound or less of black
sporting powder, provided that:
(a) Smokeless powder is intended only for hand loading of small
arms ammunition of .75 caliber or less.
(b) Black sporting powder is intended for loading of small arms or
small arms ammunition of .75 caliber or less.
(c) All such powder is for private use and not for resale, and, in
the case of black sporting powder, there shall be no gift, delivery,
or other disposition to another person.
So your wife (I don't know how a spouse applies under the law since property is legaly mutauly owned in many cases, whether that limits you both to one total or allows for 2 seperate 1 pound quantities), father and brother would all be commiting crimes by giving you black powder.
Of course nobody would likely ever learn about it, so you would get away with breaking that law, but you would still be breaking that law.
You sneaky criminal.
scrat
Member
What powder i dont know what your talking about. in fact why would i need powder. what guns. me own guns.
scrat
Member
you scared him away. Just another bp hater i guess.
They didn't really seem like questions, but more directional statements about what I should do since I wish to present this information.
Rude in my opinion so I simply chose to move on rather than acknowledge it.
I usualy like to research the law on things I do, you can't really be free, know if an officer is wrong if it becomes an issue and know what legal limits you have if you don't. After all ignorance of the law is no excuse in a court of law, even if you have to be a full time lawyer to not be ignorant of some laws (most laws) and keep up to date with them as they change.
Every year CA passes thousands of laws, clearly most people could not even cite a couple dozen of them.
I have not done much blackpowder shooting myself, but I thought it could be a lot of fun. Shooting black powder muzzle loaders, even multishot revolvers is practicly reloading each time, and as a result is quite affordable and fun compared to cartridge firearms.
Further you can easily make the propellant yourself in its best format. While smokeless even double and triple based can also be made it requires more steps, nitrating materials and then properly processing them, and is not as clearly legal. A slight variation of performance in different batches with smokeless is also much less acceptable. So the tolerances are closer.
Setting up a private laboratory with all the proper equipment during the "war on drugs" is a good way to find yourself with charges if it is 'mistaken' for (or just plainly accused of being) a meth lab.
We also have the "war on terror" and nitrating various things and making explosives could land someone in a lot of trouble even when legal. Certain types of charges are hard to fight even if false, I see those type of charges as being in that catagory.
With black powder you avoid most of that. It is more suited for a fun hobby.
Black powder is fairly simple to make, though it does take a good technique to get it just right. Many others on here do it just fine, have perfected thier technique and eagerly help others to achieve the same success. I have made small amounts with decent success for shooting, and long ago some for rockets, fireworks, etc.
So I wanted to be sure I knew the laws regarding it in the state before I got heavily into it.
So just like with many things in the crazy state of CA it is best to research things you wish to do much of. I knew some of the basics but started down the path of learning the details of the relevant laws.
I was amazed that the restrictions included such a small amount without a permit, an amount that clearly most avid black powder shooters would have more than.
I ran across cases where people had actualy been charged for possessing more than a pound and that it is a felony, punishable by up to three years, though usualy results in no real time.
Since it is clearly such a small amount to to be illegal and people on here talk about purchasing in bulk, making batches of thier own etc it goes to reason many in CA would be commiting crimes they are unaware of.
Crimes that are felonies and could strip them of thier RKBA clearly something people that visit such a board think is important(in CA felons can't have black powder weapons either.)
A further consideration is that even just giving someone a small amount of black powder is illegal without a permit.
Sharing a good batch with a friend is a crime. Probably something people should be aware of?
Clearly these are things that the average person would not assume was a crime. So surely people should be informed just for the sake of knowing the law?
What they wish to do with that information is up to them as semi-free people of the United States. I just felt they deserved to be informed.
So I felt the need to inform people of the potential felony crime.
Smokin_Gun
Member
Zoogster it ain't this forum that needs to be moved from, it's any wet fart like you that one needs to be moved from.
How dare you attemped to invade my privacy or anyone elses with the BS you are attemping to push and attemp to create felons of us all.
You have no right that is blaten verbal asault, and defimation of charactor. And yes I contacted my Criminal attorney and pointed to this website and you for the most part. So don't be surprised that with all the miles of info you have spuded at us, that it would possibley be of interest to someone else to find out your passionate interest in Black Powder. Gotta be careful Zootag alot of other things carry a felony offence or grounds for investigation.
Sleep well
SG
zxcvbob
Member
I'm pretty sure "black powder" or "black gunpowder" means real blackpowder, and Pyrodex or other substitutes would be covered by the 20# limit for smokeless powders.
However, I'll bet if you dig deep enough in California law, everybody in the state is guilty of *something* that with a little imagination could be prosecuted as a felony. (Ayn Rand predicted something like that in Atlas Shrugged. It's a control thing)
However, I'll bet if you dig deep enough in California law, everybody in the state is guilty of *something* that with a little imagination could be prosecuted as a felony. (Ayn Rand predicted something like that in Atlas Shrugged. It's a control thing)
Zoogster,
I thought this was a pretty straightforward, yes or no type question:
I suspect, after reading your rather long response, the vast majority of which had absolutely nothing to do with the questions that you answer to the following:
I did have a suggestion,which you ignored (by the way, the use of the word 'suggest' does not imply direction, but rather advice, unsolicited to be sure, and therefore subject to your volition):
I thought this was a pretty straightforward, yes or no type question:
No direction as to what you should do in that language anywhere, although it's pretty clear what I think of the value of your post. Come on man, answer the question, yes or no: you wanted everyone in CA who possesses more than a pound of black powder to know that, in your opinion, they are committing a felony; is that correct or not?
I suspect, after reading your rather long response, the vast majority of which had absolutely nothing to do with the questions that you answer to the following:
was that you didn't expect them to do anything other than just be aware of your opinion. Another yes or no question: is my presumption correct?
I did have a suggestion,which you ignored (by the way, the use of the word 'suggest' does not imply direction, but rather advice, unsolicited to be sure, and therefore subject to your volition):
In the end, you ignored this advice. I can only conclude that there is no such case law to support your position. That leads to a third simple, yes or no question: Am I correct in that conclusion?
Geez, the guy posts some info that might or might not be of use to someone, which basically covers any and all posts that are posted, and he gets crap. I'd say his intent was pretty straightforward - to warn those that might not know the law. Even if he is technically wrong (and I don't know that he is), his INTENT was good.
I've posted before about the legal dangers of buying an antique gun that shoots modern ammo, or carrying a loaded antique or repro concealed, and received similiar crap.
Maybe we need more Thought Police.
I've posted before about the legal dangers of buying an antique gun that shoots modern ammo, or carrying a loaded antique or repro concealed, and received similiar crap.
Maybe we need more Thought Police.
arcticap
Member
I started a similar thread back on March 14, 2007 about New York State BP regulations where there's some weird restrictions that no one ever follows.
As absurd as these state laws & regulations are, they're interesting just because they're on the books.
When folks don't like the message then they want to blame the messenger.
Personal attacks are definitely not High Road.
New York State BP Regulations
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=262267&highlight=new+york
As absurd as these state laws & regulations are, they're interesting just because they're on the books.
When folks don't like the message then they want to blame the messenger.
Personal attacks are definitely not High Road.
New York State BP Regulations
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=262267&highlight=new+york
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dwave
Member
Yep that is the way it is done with a few people on the BP forum, just attack the OP if they say something unpopular. VERY High Road. So who was the Hater here? I don't think it was the OPer, I think this one needs locked.
If the State of California was actively involved in arresting and prosecuting people for possession of 5 lbs of black powder I'd say the OP was doing us all a great service. The fact is, however, that nobody has ever been charged with such a crime. There is no case law. That leads me to question the accuracy of his claims and wonder about his motives. When and if information comes to light that shows I was in error, I will certainly admit that; you all know I have readily done so in the past.
There was no personal attack. At no time did I use any invective. I did state my opinion about the information, but made no implications regarding the person or personality of the poster. Hate was never implied, however much you wish to infer it as my motive. I don't mind if you disagree with my opinions, but please at least be accurate in your criticisms.
If anyone wishes to comment on this post, I'd be happy to read it in a private message. Unless someone can provide reference to information showing the State of California is enforcing these regulations in the manner suggested by the OP, I'll have nothing further to say in public on this topic.
There was no personal attack. At no time did I use any invective. I did state my opinion about the information, but made no implications regarding the person or personality of the poster. Hate was never implied, however much you wish to infer it as my motive. I don't mind if you disagree with my opinions, but please at least be accurate in your criticisms.
If anyone wishes to comment on this post, I'd be happy to read it in a private message. Unless someone can provide reference to information showing the State of California is enforcing these regulations in the manner suggested by the OP, I'll have nothing further to say in public on this topic.
Smokin_Gun
Member
You seem to be the hater, no one else mentioned the word attack but you. And i do think the operator is stirring the pot. I would hope that the High Road would hold my opinion in the same light as yours. Unless you wrote all the crap.
And I don't think this one should be locked it should be read.
Pohill, if you did read the whole thread I don't see how you think this was well itended. I am sure your thread that was posted surely was with good intent.
This guy, I believe, was here merely to divide a forum and cause hate and discontent...at least discontent.
Pohill I live here, do you think I would lie to you or anyone else about how it really is here or not know the law? I've been here since 1974 owned and registered assault weapons, have very close friends in the Sheriff's Dept. and a Personal friend that's a Criminal Attorney I have been in contact with for 10 years. Anyone that shoots legally knows what going on here. And the criminals don't care.
Why would anyone come on a forum and repeated point out that all BP owners of more than one lb. are felons? To help and share knowledge of the less fortunate? Are we stupid in CA and illiterate.
Nawww Pohill this guy ain't a do gooder, in my honest opinion...he's gettin' off watchin' the show.
SG
zxcvbob
Member
I remember news reports last year of some old guy that had "A MILLION"
rounds of ammo, along with guns and gunpowder and reloading supplies, in a tunnel under his garage. He was arrested of course. The only charge that stuck was having too much black powder, which was a felony, and disqualified all his guns. I assumed "too much" was over 50 pounds, but I'm not sure they ever said.Just because the Sword of Damocles hasn't fallen yet doesn't mean it never will. Do you really want it hanging over your head? You have voter referendums in CA, get the law changed to bring it in line with federal regulations.
It is one pound, you have seen the law showing it is one pound, and there is numerous sources you can ask.
More than 5 pounds is an additional offense.
You are correct, it was this guy, and while the story mentions other violations, that is the primary one.
He supposedly had 75 pounds (though it sounds like that is the combination of loose smokeless and black powder he had if you read the article), but they even stated more than one pound was illegal in the article :
http://www.dailybulletin.com/news/ci_5352910
Here is the photo gallery, I especialy like number 2 with the ATF agent pointing one of the man's firearms at another officer.
http://lang.dailybulletin.com/socal/gallery2/index.asp
Here is the situation aobut a month later, he reached a plea agreement for having unregistered assault weapons legal prior to 2000 that he had possessed, but primarily for having explosives, the gun powder.
They mention 185 pounds here, probably combining the previous amounts of loose powder with the weight of the loaded ammunition.
He plead guilty so they can essentialy say what they want and no challenge is made to it.
http://www.pe.com/localnews/inland/stories/PE_News_Local_S_ammo25.3bafec3.html
They also took his home away because of the tunnel. Condemned it.
There is many other cases of illegal possession of black powder. Some for just having over 1 pound, though most of them do relate to firework possession cases.
Most are just court calendar records for the charges and not good detailed stories. There is others for more than a pound for shooting though, if I run across decent detailed stories I will add those.
Here is a post from another guy on a forum that seems to sum up the law fairly well http://cartridgecollectors.org/foru...ghlight=&sid=0f50ba78f92d24a3b4f3f1cae54d73b1 :
That sounds consistent with what I have come across, and read in the law.
Well that is of course just some guy's post on the net, but it sounds right looking at the law.
Meaning substitutes fall under the 20 pound limit (of course that includes all smokeless or substitutes combined) rather than the 1 pound black powder limit.
That sounds consistent with what I have come across, and read in the law.
Well that is of course just some guy's post on the net, but it sounds right looking at the law.
Meaning substitutes fall under the 20 pound limit (of course that includes all smokeless or substitutes combined) rather than the 1 pound black powder limit.
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