Black Powder vs. Smokeless Powder?

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Aragon

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Can someone here explain to me in laymen's terms how black powder (classed as an explosive) differs from smokeless powder (classed as a propellent I believe) differ once they are confined to a specific space -- say a bullet/gun chamber?

BP rapidly "flashes" when lit while it's unconfined. Smokessless burns far more slowly. But once both are confined, smokeless creates far more energy/unit of weight.

I'm curious how this works?
 
Grain for grain, smokeless powder contains between 2 and 3 times the amount of chemical energy as black powder. (calories) Less than half of the mass of black powder converts to gas during combustion. This leads to generally reduced maximum pressures, and results in lots of solid residue in the form of smoke and fouling.

While the burning speed of black powder can increase under pressure while contained, this is markedly more true of smokeless.
 
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The "ultimate pressure" of BP is around 25,000 psi. That is, when it is packed into a strong container which will not burst when it is ignited.

I don't know what the "ultimate pressure" of smokeless is (probably partly depends on whether it is single- or double-based), but I do know that loads were developed for destruction-testing of the M1 Garand which ran up to 125,000 psi. This was the most that could be developed and measured with the rifle powders used in that cartridge, and with a bullet moving down the barrel to increase the volume as it burned.*

While both types of powder burn faster and faster as the pressure rises, BP is still limited to that 25,000 psi.

In both, burning rates versus pressure can be modified by such things as granule size, deterrent coatings, hollow granules, etc. However, smokeless rates can be varied over a wider range since it can be molded or extruded with different shapes, more than one hole may be formed while the powder is being processed, nitroglycerine can be added (which is "double-based" powder), and with other techniques.

As an example, the burning rate of "ball" powder can be increased by putting the round granules which are formed in its making through rolling presses, which increases the burning versus pressure rate because of the flattening.

As to the "foomf" of black powder versus the "hiss" of smokeless when burned in the open, I have long suspected that the individual powder grains of BP are lighter and less bound together internally, unlike smokeless. Thus the initial ignition of a loose pile of BP blows the other grains some distance apart, allowing the flame to reach a bunch of other grains all at once. And, maybe even more importantly, they are easier to ignite than smokeless.

Also on the other hand, smokeless grains are dense pieces of plastic which have internal cohesiveness and will not be broken apart or blown a distance apart from each other. So the flame front passes through the pile more slowly than BP.

Sort of like burning a stick versus burning a sheet of paper.

To be rigorously technical about it, BP is fluffier than smokeless. :D

That's my long term suspicion, anyhow.

With respect to "propellant" versus "explosive" for smokeless versus BP, igniting a closed can of smokeless results in the can finally popping open with the remainder of the smokeless hissing away, since the small amount of pressure required to pop open the can along its seams is released immediately.

With BP in a closed can, however, the can will be ripped open and flattened out and possibly thrown a dozen yards, since once the BP is ignited, it all burns up almost instantly, with a loud report.

These experiments were actually performed by General Hatcher, as described in the cited work below.

Terry, 230RN

* See Hatcher's Notebook in the chapter titled "The strength of military rifles."
 
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I like the fluffiness theory.

On a related note, it's instructive to lay out a long thin trail of smokeless, and to cover part of the trail, say with an empty tin can or even a piece of tape. The trail burns quite slowly until it reaches the confinement, and then burns very quickly while confined.

My guess is that the smokeless is laying flat, and virtually all of the heat is directed up and out. Even mild confinement can reflect that heat down into the powder, causing a much faster reaction.

When unconfined, the speed of the burn is limited to the thickness of the burning edge of powder, adjacent to the unburned powder. Double the thickness, and you'll get, what, four, maybe eight times the burn rate? It's certainly not linear.

Now I need a few hundred dollars worth of powder to burn on my sidewalk to satisfy my curiosity...
 
scythefwd remarked,

I thought burn rate pretty much defined what was an explosive and what wasn't..

Well, there's a difference between high explosives and low explosives.

Low explosives generate a rapid "deflagration," or burning, which can result in an explosion. Think grain elevator or fuel-air explosions.

(These are consistent with the "fluffiness" theory.) :D

High explosives do not "burn" but will decompose rapidly due to an intial shock wave traveling through their mass*. I believe the "burning rate" of many high explosives exceeds 3000 meters per second and they need not be confined at all. Think detcord.

Note in this vid how rapidly an explosion travels along the detcord to set off the individual strategically-placed packets of the actual cutting charges along the bridge. Don't blink or you'll miss it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nc6c18C5p1I

Different angles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=qom_uAkAaqw

I reckon the detcord detonation traveled a couple of hundred yards from left to right in less than 100 milliseconds.

More funsy stuff from CDI:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr6Jb0MQafIit.

The "lines of light" from charge to charge are from the detcord strung along the structures. Sometimes they do it a section at a time to leave a portion of the rivers navigable while the junk is cleared away.

Terry, 230RN

*Many high explosives can be put in a fire in small pieces without exploding, although they will burn with great rapidity. As long as they're in small pieces.
 
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I thought it was more like 1400 ft per second was explosives, below that wasn't.. I havent looked it up yet.. but I think its an official definition I'm recalling.

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http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/npsg/explosives/Chapter2.pdf
Low explosives - Their detonation velocity rate is below 3,280 feet per second. (Black powder rate is 1,312 fps) High explosives burn or detonate at a rate of above 3,280 f.p.s. (Dynamite-about 9,000 f.p.s.; RDX - 27,500 f.p.s.)

wonder what the burn rate is for nitro powders?
 
"...Smokeless burns far more slowly..." Nope. Smokeless burns much faster than BP and doesn't explode. BP is a low grade explosive and explodes vs burns despite appearances.
"nitro powders" means nitrocellulose powders. All smokeless powders are nitrocellulose powders.
 
The combustion rate of smokeless powders varies with pressure. High pressure means a higher combustion rate. Take smokeless powder and burn it in the open, and it just burns. Stuff it into a cartridge, and it burns FAR faster.

BTW, this is how you throttle a solid-fuel rocket. Many of the propellant mixes are essentially smokeless powder (and come from the same manufacturers). They use a blow-out plug to cut the pressure...which drops the burn rate like a rock.

Black powder doesn't display that characteristic to anywhere near the same degree.
 
"...Smokeless burns far more slowly..." Nope. Smokeless burns much faster than BP and doesn't explode. BP is a low grade explosive and explodes vs burns despite appearances.
"nitro powders" means nitrocellulose powders. All smokeless powders are nitrocellulose powders.

"Nope." :rolleyes:

If you actually read my OP I wrote "...BP rapidly "flashes" when lit while it's unconfined. Smokessless burns far more slowly..."

Emphasis added.
 
The combustion rate of smokeless powders varies with pressure. High pressure means a higher combustion rate. Take smokeless powder and burn it in the open, and it just burns. Stuff it into a cartridge, and it burns FAR faster.

BTW, this is how you throttle a solid-fuel rocket. Many of the propellant mixes are essentially smokeless powder (and come from the same manufacturers). They use a blow-out plug to cut the pressure...which drops the burn rate like a rock.

Black powder doesn't display that characteristic to anywhere near the same degree.

This is the sorta information I am looking for. Do you happen to know of a source that goes a bit deeper? Thanks.
 
"...Smokeless burns far more slowly..." Nope. Smokeless burns much faster than BP and doesn't explode. BP is a low grade explosive and explodes vs burns despite appearances.
"nitro powders" means nitrocellulose powders. All smokeless powders are nitrocellulose powders.

This post is incorrect in about every way imaginable.
 
Black powder is classified as a low grade explosive, the very weakest of all explosives. It has a detonation rate of 800 meters per second, again, the slowest of all true explosives. By comparison, TNT has a detonation rate of nine thousand meters per second. PETN, or det cord, had a detonation rate on the far side of 11,000 meters per second. Smokeless powder will not build pressure unless it it confined, hence, it is not classified as an explosive. That is the main difference between an explosive and a propellant.

There are other factors involved. Smokeless powder has nitroglycerin in its chemical composition, to varying degrees, and nitroglycerin has far more heat energy (BTUs) than sulfur, charcoal and saltpeter found in black powder. When burned, sulfur gives off white smoke, explaining why black powder gives off white smoke.

So what we have here is apples and oranges, two entirely different substances to achieve the same goal. One does an infinitely better job.
 
"...Smokeless burns far more slowly..." Nope. Smokeless burns much faster than BP and doesn't explode.

Try burning some BP, pistol powder and rifle powder and let us know. Please do this outside, with a long match and eye protection of course. Be careful when igniting the BP.

BTW, I've done this and BP burns much faster. Smokeless is fairly boring to watch burn.
 
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