black talons

[glockkeeper]

Hello again everyone, I have heard alot about Black Talons.I have not heard anything that makes sense about why they were banned.I have heard people call them "cop killers".Firstly how would this be true if the cop was wearing a bullet proof vest? Would it not be hard or close to impossible for a hollow point to penetrate so much that it goes thru a vest and still deep enough to kill? I am too young to actually remember this round as i am only about to be 22 years old tomorrow.I have only been interested in guns for about 2 yrs. Thanks for all of your info.

 

[waterhouse]

I think the same round is still around, it is just under a new name, the Winchester Ranger (Ranger Talon or Ranger SXT I think . . .I 'm not too sure). They also changed the color. This is hard ammo to find through regular channels, but a bunch of it gets sold on gunbroker.

As for the cop killer part, I believe it was just a bunch of media hype.

 

[HighVelocity]

The Black Talon was a victim of the media. It was all a bunch of lies.
Ohhhh those bullets are black so they must be extra deadly.

As stated above, they're still made but not black and not called Black Talons.

 

[glockkeeper]

thanks alot for clearing that up for me. you dun't happen to know what they for a box do ya?

 

[mbartel]

The Black Talons were never banned. Winchester voluntarily quit making them for political and marketing reasons. Actually, the only real change was in the name itself. The current Winchester "SXT" bullets are basically the same as the Black Talons, with possibly some minor improvements, a color change being one of them. The black color came from the "lubalox" coating that was put on the bullet. The bright nickel plated cases with those black coated bullets sure made a very distinctive looking round. This urban legend about them being banned, will probably never go away. A good demonstration of the power of the liberal media....

 

[glockkeeper]

sorry for the shotty typing. i'm tryin to do 2 things at once. you don't know what they charge for a box do ya?

 

[waterhouse]

just found this little tidbit:

The Black Talon bullet came under intense negative media scrutiny after it was criminally misused in a shooting rampage in a San Francisco office building in July 1993. Nine people were killed and six wounded by gunman Gian Luigi Ferri. The news media reported falsehoods that Black Talon's "razor sharp claws" created particularly ghastly, devastating and unsurvivable wounds.

The forensic pathologist who performed the autopsies of the fatal shooting victims gave a detailed presentation about his findings at the 1994 IWBA Wound Ballistics Conference in Sacramento: "The 101 California Shooting: The Black Talon Bullet," Boyd Stevens, M.D., Medical Examiner, San Francisco, CA. He stated that the wound trauma produced by Black Talon was unremarkable, meaning the wounds were no different nor any more severe than wounds produced by typical JHP handgun bullets. Each of the victims incurred fatal injury because a bullet passed through a vital structure.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs2.htm#Black-Talon

 

[glockkeeper]

Very interesting, so every thing i've been told is all bs.Well it makes better sense that way, especially about the "cop killer" part. The more I thought about it the less sense it made.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I BELIEVE that the hype around Black Talons was also because of the Teflon coating on the bullets. People often think that Teflon allows a bullet to penetrate a bulletproof vest. Not so. The Teflon on Black Talons was to improve feeding by reducing friction between the bullet and the feed ramp.

For a bullet to penetrate armor it must have a core of something hard, usually something like steel. These bullets are often Teflon coated so they won't wreck your barrel. Because steel is much rougher on your barrel than copper or lead. But it's the steel core that makes it armor piercing, NOT the Teflon.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

The animated video used to demonize the Black talon by the anti-gun
folks showed the Black Talon bullet open its demon claws, speed up and
go spinning through the cartoon torso like a Tasmanian Devil. A bullet
spinnng at the rate of one turn in fourteen inches or so is going to
slow down as it passes through. The Black Talon like any other
hollowpoint bullet might make one complete revolution or less.

This is like the anti-gun claim that a .22 short from an RG10 hit a man
in the chest and ripped around his body ending up in his leg. Going to
the original source, Atlas of Forensic Pathology, I found that the
.22 bullet had penetrated the chest into an artery and had been carried
by circulation down the aorta to the femoral artery of the leg, about
as zippy as a big blood clot.

Antis spend so much time fantasizing about blood and gore, then
project their fantasies on us.

 

[grizz5675]

Im 46 and so im old enough to have been around when all the cotraversy over the black talon was going around.Im not positive but i believe the big deal was that the black talons made back then were teflon coated and when fired at a LEOs bullet proof vest ,the round would actually slide right through the material and kill whoever was that unfortunate person wearing it.

 

[BsChoy]

"Firstly how would this be true if the cop was wearing a bullet proof vest"?

There is no such thing as a bullet proof vest, they are bullet resistant. You can have a failure at anytime with any vest...laws of probabilities apply always

 

[mbartel]

Teflon has nothing to do with bullets penetrating vests. To set the record straight....Black Talons were not coated with Teflon. Teflon is a trademark product of DuPont. They were coated with Winchester's "lubalox". This went along with the nickel plated cases to form a round that was pretty much impervious to bullet oxidation, and case tarnish. The lubalox might have helped the bullet cycle through the action better. There is probably more BS, ignorance, and mis-information, concerning this round than any other cartridge ever made.

 

[pcf]

Im 46 and so im old enough to have been around when all the cotraversy over the black talon was going around.Im not positive but i believe the big deal was that the black talons made back then were teflon coated and when fired at a LEOs bullet proof vest ,the round would actually slide right through the material and kill whoever was that unfortunate person wearing it.

A nice little media trick......Body armor requires some sort of backing to support it, in order to work correctly. Many rounds tha the armor would normally defeat can penetrate if it is loosely hung.

NIJ test certifies armor using FMJ rounds, why? They deform less and penetrate better than other conventional rounds. Without a doubt a hollowpoint bullet is one of the worst penetrator out there.

 

[Chuck Dye]

Glockkeeper,

To answer your price question, in part, the Black Talons I bought in Salt Lake City a week or two after their introduction, and have yet to shoot, cost $9.48 for 20 147gr. 9mm and $10.81 for 20 230gr .45ACP, not much, if anything, more than other premium ammo. The State of Utah, and IIRC City of Salt Lake, added sales tax. Current prices are whatever the market will bear.

 

[Bobo]

Winchester Ranger formerly SXT, now Supreme T (civilian):
http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/handgundetail.aspx?symbol=S45&use=3

and

Winchester Ranger T (LEO):
http://www.winchester.com/lawenforcement/catalog/handgundetail.aspx?symbol=RA45T&type=1

are the latest versions of the former Black Talon.

Cost of the Ranger Ts:
http://www.prestostore.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?ref=hotpig27&ct=59100

 

[Highland Ranger]

Cost depends on caliber - try http://www.midwayusa.com

 

[The Drew]

Hype and myth... the old black talon isn't any more effective than any other modern HP. Winchester HAS improved the bullet, the ranger talons are NOT the same as the black talons. They are an "improved" version.

 

[mr.trooper]

Winchester Ranger formerly SXT, now Supreme T (civilian):
http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/handgundetail.aspx?symbol=S45&use=3

and

Winchester Ranger T (LEO):
http://www.winchester.com/lawenforcement/catalog/handgundetail.aspx?symbol=RA45T&type=1

are the latest versions of the former Black Talon.

Cost of the Ranger Ts:
http://www.prestostore.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?ref=hotpig27&ct=59100

As if there can actualy be such a thing as LEO ammo. If winchester wont sell it to us or someone else will. And even if the BATF slaps a superflus "ban" on it, we can either buy surpluss or, wait for it, LOAD OUR OWN.

 

[whm1974]

As if there can actualy be such a thing as LEO ammo.

Other then AP handgun ammo I don't think so.

And even if the BATF slaps a superflus "ban" on it

I don't see how they can ban "Black Talons" without banning other HP ammo. A simple name change would get around any ban.

-Bill

 

[hotpig]

ATF has no desire to ban the SXT family of bullets.Maybe some AP ammo, but not the SXT.

 

[Lennyjoe]

I think I have 2 boxes of 9MM talons still somewhere in the safe. No real reason for keeping them. No real reason to get rid of them either I guess.

 

[The-Fly]

I think I have 2 boxes of 9MM talons still somewhere in the safe. No real reason for keeping them. No real reason to get rid of them either I guess.

take em to a gun show and sell em. Idiots will pay huge for black talons thinking their some wonder bullet.

 

[robear]

I have a box also LennyJoe,

Here's a pic:

Ooooo...

So evil!

 

[Grey54956]

Be careful not to tough the tips of those things.

Don't you know? If you even tough one, the razor sharp edges will cut not just your fingertip, they will actually sever your entire arm. And after that, because they are so dangerous, you'll burst into flames and be wisked away to the 4th circle of hell!

That's what the VPC and Brady Bunch tell me anyway. Oh, also you don't need a Glock either. The black coating is actually a anti-magnetic teflon coating that not only allows the bullet to slide right through a kevlar vest or 12 inches of plate steel, but also renders whatever gun they are loaded into completely undetectable to metal detectors! I have it from a reliable source.