Blackpowder cartridges in modern revolver

[BCRider]

MCB, any thoughts on what's in Ballistol that gives it that eye watering smell to go with the benign mineral oil? Are there any recipes around for a home brew Ballistol clone?

Also on that Webley of yours what is that funky looking wedge ahead of the cylinder used for? I've seen other Webleys but don't recall seeing anything like that on them. And yeah, if it's working well with easily attainable .45ACP then why switch? But how do you get it to eject the empties? Or is that why you'd like to switch?

 

[arcticap]

any thoughts on what's in Ballistol...?

From:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=4450.0

It is a form of mineral oil extracted from coal. Most likely lignite coal.

About ten years ago or so when I first learned about this stuff I called a distributor, I believe out of Colorado, and talked with him about it. He passed on the story that it was a coal oil product developed in Germany as an all in one lube that would help to preserve metal, oil, wood, and even serve as an antiseptic aid for minor cuts.

Manufacturing
Ballistol USA now manufactures Ballistol-Lube in the United States with certain very important ingredients still being imported from Germany.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sister Companies
In 1874, Friedrich Wilhelm Klever, an attorney with interest in economy, founded the "Klever Company" in Cologne, Germany. He began producing oils and greases from coal and eventually bought a coal mine, so he would not run out of raw materials. Freidrich's son, Dr. Helmut Klever, had become a professor of chemistry at the Technical University of Karlsruhe. He set out to develop an all-around oil for the Army. In 1904 Dr. Helmut Klever succeeded in producing an oil, which he named "BALLISTOL, from the word 'ballistic' and the Latin word for oil 'oleum'. BALLISTOL has been around in Europe for over 90 years. Originally invented for military use it became a household word in Germany, Austria and Switzerland. Millions of users have experimented with BALLISTOL and found new surprising applications for it, some of which reach into field of veterinary and even human medicine.

http://www.ballistol.com/dealer_Becomewtc.htm

 

[rcmodel]

what is that funky looking wedge ahead of the cylinder used for?

Standard equipment on Webleys.
And a pretty good idea too.

It is there to make re-holstering easier/smoother/faster without the cylinder face hanging up on the edge of the holster like our revolvers are prone to do.

I suppose it could be used to deflect a frontal attack on the gun hand from a knife or bayonet too????

rc

 

[arcticap]

I don't use anything anymore but Black in my BFR in 45-70 and it works fine, smokeless is a little hard on the wrist.
No problem in cleaning at all.

Since the lands & grooves in the barrels of smokeless guns are cut less deep then those of BP weapons. I'm not sure if this has an actual effect on accuracy.
I seeme not to get a grouping as small as with my true BP revolvers.

Anyone know something about this?

I'll bet that the rifling depth does have something to do with it.

Most of the black powder rifles that shoot conicals the best seem to have deeper rifling grooves.
Maybe the deeper rifling can hold more black powder fouling so once it fouling begions, it doesn't lose as much of its ability to impart spin unto the projectile. This may help to produce more consistent spin, velocity and performance.

I think that an analogy might be like driving a car through wet snow, and how when the tire treads start to get all clogged up with it, they lose their ability to gain much traction. Then the car can't move forward as well, steering becomes less precise and predictable and its performance suffers.
If you've ever driven through snow then you know what I mean.

 

[andrewstorm]

blk pwder in cartridge guns?

iffin u wanna clean it after every shoot,its is allright with sammi,black powder or subs,generate far lower pressure curvs than smokless powder loads enjoy ur smoke

 

[mesinge2]

I Shot the black powder! 150 rounds out of a Judge with a 3" barrel. This was the first round through it:

View attachment 118220



Just finshed cleaning, in a word WOW!

Pre cleaning pic, after wiping at the range:

View attachment 118221

I Practically soaked it in Breakfree; It came out looking pretty good though, post cleaning image:

View attachment 118167


I looks like it is a matte blueing over half of the gun. I was supprised by the accuracy of the blackpowder rounds, I don't know why but they seemed more accurate that the Hornady LEVERevolution I have been using. However, accuracy started suffering after about 100 rds. I just tried BCRider's trick a "spritz of Windex" down the barrel, works great!

Thanks for the tip BCRider.

Anyways I fired another 50 rds or so and finished up with the Judge for the day and started on my Security Six's work out.

BP rounds are too much fun, I need to make some more!


P.S. Funny side note my Fiber optic sight disappeared after 10 rounds.

 

[BCRider]

My own indoor range won't let me shoot black powder. I assumed it was because of all the smoke but he said that it was the often longer lived glowing embers. The smokeless guns puke out a lot of unburnt powder and it's all laying on the floor in the first 20 feet of the firing line. One glowing grain of black into that and we'd be in for quite the show.

He's right too. I've stayed around to chat on many occasions until closing time and helped the guys sweep up the brass and generally clean. There's a HEAP of powder in with the brass. Much of it comes from the Winclean ammo apparently.

Mesinge, if you're going to be shooting a mix or switch to all black you'll want to swing away from petroleum oil products in your Judge and go with either Ballistol or some vegtable oil. That will also aid in clearing the fouling by keeping it softer.

And as much as I'd like to take credit for the Windex trick it was something that I read here at THR or one of the other black powder "how-to" websites when I was doing my initial homework. I just passed it along.

 

[RyanM]

Being paranoid explosions is usually good, but I sort of doubt that a spark would do much to set off the powder. If it wasn't ignited by the muzzle blast, it's not likely to go off from a spark. I know 100% that Alliant Power Pistol is so insensitive, a muzzleloading cap in a revolver won't ignite it without a BP booster (NAA Companion load). It also requires a lot of pressure to ignite from a centerfire primer. Trying to make a blank with some newspaper packed into a .40 case only gets you a pop no louder than the primer itself, and a newspaper "bullet" and all the powder flying out.

 

[BCRider]

It's more the flash fire they are worried about than an explosion. And they are right to worry. When I commented on all the powder "residue" they owner mentioned that it was unburnt. When I wasn't looking he scooped up a few tablespoons worth and when we were done with the cleaning we went out to the parking lot and puddled the powder in a little heap with a one foot "trail" leading away. He lit the end of the trail with one of thoe extension lighters while hugging the ground and the trail and pile went up with a nice big flash and a satisfying WOOSH sound and a nice rolling micro mushroom cloud of smoke. So yeah, I don't blame him for worrying about an errant ember of black making it to the floor and setting off the powder there. I've seen the guys in my cowboy action events shooting black and while it's rare to see an ember make it that far it has happened. I've likely thrown a few myself shooting my Remingtons last year. But being a tad focused on the sights I didn't really notice...

 

[41 Colt]

One thing to keep in mind if you've read the BP fundementals sticky is that black and petroleum based oils do not go together well. You'll need to clean the gun with solvent and re-lube with vegtable or animal based oil. Or something that isn't petro based such as Ballistol.

Is Olive Oil okay? I have been lubing my BP guns with modern Outer's Gun Oil.

 

[BCRider]

Much like my using Canola I suspect that you'll be fine. I know the extra virgin oils are supposed to have a little more solids in them which is where the color and flavour comes from. Not sure if this would be a good or bad thing for our guns. But it would definetly make them taste better in a salad along with a bit of balsamic and fresh herbs.... But for that reason I suspect the more cheaper and generic clear olive oil would be a better choice.

Try a long term corrosion test of the olive oil where you lay some scraps of raw and oiled steel out in the sun and rain. If it's really dry in your area mist it with water a few times a day when you remember. Also watch for signs of the olive oil hardening like a varnish. I found that the canola did this after about a week or two in the hot summer sun. So for that reason I'll use it for shooting days and between shoots if I know I'll be using it again, and cleaning as a result, for anything up to around 6 weeks to 2 months. I know that the canola stayed nice and "wet" for at least that long when kept in the dark in my gun cabinet. But for more than 2 months and I'd begin to worry about it hardening up and then it's time to clean it and store for long term with Ballistol. Or if you have to use a petroleum based oil because you can't find Ballistol then be sure to clean and relube with the olive oil before your first shoot.

 

[mesinge2]

This experience has got me wanting a BP only gun.
What Blackpowder only revolver do you guys recommend?

I would prefer a cartridge gun though.

 

[Oyeboten]

Any Centerfire Revolver of any age will gladly fire Black Powder Cartridges.


.38 S&W is a Natural of course...and, .38 Special is a definite charmer, as is .44 Special, as is .45 LC...


Use Pure Lead Bullets...


And...


FPS is as good or better than general off the shelf usual now-a-days 'saami' spec Rounds...too..!


A 'win-win'..!

 

[mesinge2]

I was looking at something like this:

a Cimarron US Cavalry Model 7.5 inch in .45 Colt

View attachment 118372

I love the Charcoal Blue

 

[pikid89]

get you a ruger blackhawk

 

[mesinge2]

I just looked at ruger's site. The 45 colt/acp model is the best of both worlds.

Check, new item on list!

 

[button]

I have a .44 conversion to .45 colt and was planing reloading with BP. Then a thought came to mind since I also own the .44 Bufalo pistol with brass frame and it's made for BP in the first place, would it be safe to shoot the bp cartridge in the brass frame? Loading with 30 grains of BP (which is the same load for the revolver to begin with)
Thinking about it there should not be a problem shooting the BP cartridge in the Buffalo pistol. Also on cleaning I use really hot soapy water (at least 120 degrees) and swab out the loose stuff and use a clean cloth to remove BP from around the cyclinder, then take the air hose to it to dry. Oil up afterwards. Not a problem with rust or build up and does not take very long!
Also was looking into how the Buffalo hunters use to clean there Sharpes and found out they would soak there cartidges in vinager to dissolve the BP. Could not find a time period so i experimented with a .45 colt cart. and let it set overnight. came out clean and was impressed.

 

[BHP FAN]

20 grains of BP and a wonder wad are 20 grains of BP and a wonder wad, whether or not it's in a cartridge or a cylinder chamber.The whole deal with the conversion cylinders cautions is that they're written by battalions of lawyers to protect the manufactures.obviously they are afraid some dorf is going to load up 5.5 of HP38 behind a 250 grain slug,and ruin his gun and sue R&D or Kirst,or worse yet double charge it with Bullseye and kill himself or a spectator,and that's a reasonable concern.But if I load 20 grains of BP in my own gun,knowing I'm shooting the same load,with a comparable bullet weight to what I always do am I worried? No. but each guy has to make their own informed decisions on that,and realize that it voids the warranty,and that the company [or me,by the way]are not to blame for the decision that you made.

 

[black_powder_Rob]

Button I think a conversion cylinder would stretch your buffalo frame out and I do not believe that the conversion cylinders are for those frames.

 

[RyanM]

Easiest way to tell if a conversion cylinder will stretch the frame is see if it can move back and forth in the gun any. If not, it won't stretch anything any more than the exact same load in the original cylinder. That's with the cylinders that have a back piece thingie that makes it work without any modifications to the gun.

 

[ClemBert]

This experience has got me wanting a BP only gun.
What Blackpowder only revolver do you guys recommend?

I would prefer a cartridge gun though.

I bought a Ruger Old Army to shoot blackpowder cap-n-ball style but then decided I needed a conversion cylinder too so I could shoot cartridge style.



Now I have the option of doing both and I can do it in the same shooting session just by swapping out the cylinder. I load my own 45 Colt cartridges with 40 grains of GOEX 3Fg blackpowder to shoot through the Ruger. I also own a Taurus Judge Magnum but for that I load my 45 Colt cartridges with smokeless powder.

 

[arcticap]

With brass frame Remingtons, the wear occurs around the 2 holes in the frame that support the cylinder pin. Since brass is softer than steel the holes can become out of round much easier. That's not the same as frame stretch but can still cause cylinder play and affect cylinder alignment and timing if it gets severe. Then steel bushings would need to be installed to fix it.

Firing the cartridge case in the conversion cylinder may develop more pressure and recoil forces than a cap & ball revolver chamber would, especially if shooting heavier 250 grain bullets compared to shooting lighter projectiles.
Then there's a hotter primer which burns powder more efficiently, and the crimped bullet inside of a better sealed containment that would be contributing to generating more pressure, recoil and in turn, additional wear on the cylinder pin holes than would otherwise occur.
The difference in the rate of wear on the supporting brass may not be immediately noticeable but could be cumulative over time.
IMO it's possible that some additional wear & tear could result due to firing .45 LC loads out of the brass buffalo revolver.

 

[button]

Thanks, This seems to be a common response to all ya'll out there! Clembert just want to say' "NICE PEICE OF HARDWARE!"
CLEMBERT, BHP FAN, BLACKPOWDER ROB, RYAN M and ARCTICAP, Great info like always! My plans were 30 grains of Goex 3fg BP (per cylinder load in the handbook that came with the gun) with a 250 gr flat Magtech bullet using a NO. 2 1/2 large pistol & revolver primer also from Magtech. Did not think that there would be a difference between the cylinder and cartridge. Glad i asked before i jumped in! Guess the steel frame revolver (conversion) will shoot the reloads and the Buffalo will be BP cylinder (the way it was made to be). BHP Fan, no worries no blame will be givin to ya! My decision my resposability! That is why i asked! Thanks again!

 

[button]

Another question for the experts!
Playing with this idea in my mind for a couple of weeks and just want to know what ya'll think? Reloading the .45 colt and .44 Mag with BP (Goex 3fg) and a 250 grain flat bullet with some Buck shot or BB's behind it for Hunting/Home defense loads! (of course OUTSIDE Home defense) You know for Coyotes, Hogs, Neighborhood Drug dealer who strays onto my property! Am I CRAZY or have I been watching too many Spaghetti Westerns? Sometimes I wish we still had western justice now a days!

 

[EnsignJimmy]

Another question for the experts!
Playing with this idea in my mind for a couple of weeks and just want to know what ya'll think? Reloading the .45 colt and .44 Mag with BP (Goex 3fg) and a 250 grain flat bullet with some Buck shot or BB's behind it for Hunting/Home defense loads! (of course OUTSIDE Home defense) You know for Coyotes, Hogs, Neighborhood Drug dealer who strays onto my property! Am I CRAZY or have I been watching too many Spaghetti Westerns? Sometimes I wish we still had western justice now a days!

A 250 grain bullet parked on top of 35 grains of black will produce something like 940 ft/sec out of a 5.25" barrel in the .45 Colt. The .44 Magnum will hold about five fewer grains, and will produce lower velocities as a result. You don't need to attempt anything screwy, like putting other projectiles behind the first bullet . . . as the bullet will already cleanly ventilate everything you've listed above.