Blaring example of why you should carry....

Status
Not open for further replies.
This is the same decision that I, as a teacher made. I am aware of two teachers in my building who carry; but frankly, there appears to be a greater tolerance for women who carry illegally than for men. If our district allowed it I know more who would.

I teach in Kansas. Kansas allows the districts to decide if teachers can carry. However, the insurance carrier in Kansas has said, "no." As such, no teachers carry legally. By comparison, Utah addressed the situation differently. Instead of the "district may allow" as seen in Kansas, Utah passed "district may not forbid." Teachers in Utah a required to keep their firearm concealed. Incredibly enough, this has not resulted in any great catastrophe.

So, now you know another teacher who would carry if it were legal. However, I would attend a training course. There are several for teachers. That brings up a direction I would like to see the issue of teacher firearm training to go, real and appropriate firearm training for teachers. I am not asking for three days of, "don't shoot your students." I would like to see marksmanship coaching and training focused on shooting in chaotic situations.

While I see it as essential that the training be available and affordable, I would like to see those teachers also trained to the basic EMT standard. Yes, this training would eat a better part of a summer; however, it would be a direction toward a teacher first responder certification.

As you can see, I am not entirely in favor of Utah's "sure, you can carry a gun" policy. Then, I am not in favor of "no guns" either. I want to see training that is appropriate and affordable. I will tell you that my research has shown that there are teacher firearm courses available. The next step is to decide on a minimum level of training, insuring it is, as I have said several times, appropriate and affordable and to then allow those teachers to be armed.


Lot of really good stuff in your comment here. I hadn't given any consideration whatsoever to the issue of insurance. Training is always good. The more you can get, the better. However, if you tack on a summer's worth of EMT training, you'll lose participants. As much as I support the idea of additional armed faculty in my building, I would not sign up if I knew I had to give up my summer-even if paid.

I agree with your moderate position. "No guns" is a bad answer as is"everyone with guns." There needs to be a middle ground. I would at least like to be allowed to retain a gun locked inside my vehicle, so I could at least defend myself on my way, to and from work. That said, my kids all know I hunt and shoot competitively. If it were known that teachers were allowed to have guns in their vehicles, and a kid wanted a gun, he would go straight to my truck in the parking lot, break out the window, and take my gun. (I need to put a long shank padlock through the top strap and cylinder opening and around some metal, bolted anchor under the seat.) So there's another reason administrators don't want teachers with guns.
 
You want to add to the teacher shortage? Ask them to train to kill and always carry a gun.
No one is proposing to add the duty of armed guard to teachers' job descriptions. All that is being proposed is to repeal, for teachers and support staff who carry legally off school property, the prohibition against carrying on school property. There would be no added expense to the school system.

In my opinion, the objection to armed teachers and staff rests in a philosophical aversion to the use of force in defense that permeates the educational establishment. Hokie_PhD says he was present during a school shooting. I believe that, had he taken down the shooter hand to hand, injuring or killing him in the process, it would have ended his career in education.
 
Had the coach who got killed during Florida shooting where he used his body as a shield been allowed to carry and instead stopped the shooter, he would be considered defender of children and a hero.
 
Not really sure where you're going with this.

The students in the high school aren't old enough to carry even if the school wasn't a gun free zone. The teachers also can't carry because the school is a gun free zone. The SRO was allowed to carry and he failed to act. You may want to carry everywhere you legally can, but I fail to see any way to draw a connection between a civilian lawfully carrying a concealed weapon and the events that transpired in Parkland.

So, whatever lessons can be learned from Parkland, it doesn't strike me as a Glaring Example of the need for concealed carry.
It is, you know.

The schools are responsible for the children. They should be prepared to defend those children as vigorously as the parents would. If teachers cannot carry in school, change the law.
 
No one is proposing to add the duty of armed guard to teachers' job descriptions. All that is being proposed is to repeal, for teachers and support staff who carry legally off school property, the prohibition against carrying on school property. There would be no added expense to the school system.

I agree with you on this, but,to be honest, I'm thinking that, at least in big city districts, parents would rail against this.

In fact, I'm beginning to see this debate in the same familiar terms as every other political discourse: left vs right. The only people calling for more guns in schools are gun owners. The only people objecting are anti-gun people. same fight, different battle ground. I firmly believe that gun owners and advocates for arming teachers will, for the most part, lose this fight, just as I believe that gun owners and the NRA will ultimately lose the overall debate. But that is just one man's opinion.
 
And they'd be talking about the poor misunderstood "child" the teacher shot. You can't win with some people.

Especially if it was an urban inner city ghetto thug; then the racism card will get played.
 
It is, you know.

The schools are responsible for the children. They should be prepared to defend those children as vigorously as the parents would. If teachers cannot carry in school, change the law.
The PARENTS are responsible for their children and had they done their due diligence as parents (not just this scenario), weapons, fights, bullying, etc. would be at a minimum.
 
The PARENTS are responsible for their children and had they done their due diligence as parents (not just this scenario), weapons, fights, bullying, etc. would be at a minimum.

While I agree with your thoughts, legally speaking, the school district and employees are legally responsible for the well being of students from the time they get on the bus until they get off the bus. Loco Parentis. I'm legally responsible for my students' well being. If I neglect that responsibility, and a student gets hurt due to my inattention my district is going to be paying out to a lawsuit settlement.
 
Not really sure where you're going with this.

The students in the high school aren't old enough to carry even if the school wasn't a gun free zone. The teachers also can't carry because the school is a gun free zone. The SRO was allowed to carry and he failed to act. You may want to carry everywhere you legally can, but I fail to see any way to draw a connection between a civilian lawfully carrying a concealed weapon and the events that transpired in Parkland.

So, whatever lessons can be learned from Parkland, it doesn't strike me as a Glaring Example of the need for concealed carry.
Sorry boss, but you are dead wrong. the rules need to change and do so quickly. Schools need to be made non-gun-free zones (yep you read that right guns allowed to be carried lawfuly by anyone in the school and on it's grounds at any time of the day.). Here in Virginia we have a very unique condition where we can easily compare firearms laws. We have four major jurisdictions in three different gun law areas - Fairfax County in VA; Montgomery and Prince Georges Counties in MD; and the District of Columbia. Virginia is a shall issue state (anyone that is not a convicted felon or wife beater can obtain a CCW); Maryland is a can issue - just cause needed but some are issued. And last the District - which up until about a year ago it was non issue community. All one needs to do is to look at the homicide rate for all four major areas and you'll see a corralation. If one doesn't know who may be armed the likely hood that one will try to commit murder is less.
 
I firmly believe that gun owners and advocates for arming teachers will, for the most part, lose this fight.
You can believe all you want but the FACT is since Sandy Hook shooting, INCREASING number of states have allowed carrying of guns by school staff.

This is not a win or lose by pro-gun or anti-gun - It's about protecting children in schools. And we need to come together and focus on workable solutions both short-term and long-term if we are going to prevent future school shootings to better protect the children.

Since Sandy Hook, different measures have been put in place to prevent school shootings. BUT the latest school shooting in Florida illustrated:
  • Reporting of threat of school shooting failed the children
  • Local Law Enforcement failed the children
  • FBI failed the children
  • SRO stationed at the school failed the children
  • Deputies responding to the school failed the children
  • PD officers arrived too late to help the children and SD deputies did not go in the building with PD officers which is under investigation by SD Internal Affairs and State LE agency as ordered by the governor
Keep trying the same thing expecting different outcome is insanity.

I for one is interested in other options that show promise.
 
Last edited:
The PARENTS are responsible for their children and had they done their due diligence as parents (not just this scenario), weapons, fights, bullying, etc. would be at a minimum.
How can a parent do "due diligence" to control SOMEONE ELSE'S child -- who isn't even enrolled in the school?

It looks like you're blaming the victims.
 
As a teacher, I keep saying this, but I feel like people aren't getting it. Armed teachers will not happen. NO ONE in education wants it. Not administrators. Not teachers. Not students. Not even teachers who are gun owners and NRA members want it. The ONLY group calling for arming teachers is the NRA. Even if Congress and the President repealed the law that created gun free school zones, I would be surprised if more than a handful of school boards and superintendents allowed it.

And let's look at all of the drawbacks and issues with arming teachers that would have to be addressed to make such a thing successful. Skip the training part for moment: most of us here can teach anyone how to shoot-that's the easy part. How many teachers are ready to kill one of their students, right now? Not many. How many have the psychological and emotional state of mind to do that and successfully deal with the added responsibility of knowing that, in addition to everything else they have to do, they now have to constantly be prepared to killed someone. I don't know a single teacher who signed up for that. You want to add to the teacher shortage? Ask them to train to kill and always carry a gun. Most people don't want to do that. NOW look at the training. How many teachers have time to go to the range even 8 hrs a month? Unless they're already gun enthusiasts (not just owners, enthusiasts-I know teachers who own guns and haven't fired them in years.), they're not going to have time to put in the time required to be competent with a firearm. And then there is the cost? Who is paying for all of this? Who is willing to pay more local taxes to buy guns, ammo, range time, training, psych evaluation and counseling for these armed teachers? Who is going to pay these teachers the additional "hazard duty pay" to compensate them for all of that training and counseling time? (I would be shocked if any teachers did this on a completely free/voluntary basis.)

What's that you say? Use teachers who are veterans? Most veterans (myself included) were not in the combat arms. I have no special experience or training from my time in service that makes me anymore qualified to be armed at school that the 22 yr old girl in her first year of teaching in the classroom next to me (other than that I can safely handle a gun, and I can hit a human silhouette at 300 yrds-and I haven't done that in 20 years)

So what are we going to end up with? Tired, overwork teachers with guns and not much more. My district is cutting over 30 teachers from the rolls at the end of this year. (They're also cutting school security staff.) They cut teaching positions every year, usually by not replacing retirees. I have 35 textbooks that are 15 years old for 120 students. I can't get a map of the United States for my wall unless I buy it myself. I had to buy my own DVD drive to show films in class. School districts across America suffer from a combination of poor leadership, and state legislatures and voters who don't put a priority on education. What makes any of you think that handing out guns to teachers would be any better or somehow different than any other government undertaking?

Thanks for letting me vent.

Those are some good observations from a teacher. I have no clue what goes on in a classroom so I listen and read.

You brought up cost. That seems to be a real concern for schools. I just voted to provide new computers and technology in our school district by adding a special assessment to my property tax. I however won't vote for any additional security until the district has tried to use the resources they have. One of those is voluntary concealed carry by teachers. If nobody steps up then it's the use of volunteers in the community who are trained and qualified. I would be one of those. I'm retired, I train every week and I have a license to carry concealed. I would be willing to take any additional training they might require on my dime if necessary. Has anyone asked me to volunteer my time at the school that's 1/4 mile from my house? No and I doubt they ever will.

If you believe that arming teachers is a bad idea or not practical, what other solutions do you have? How much do you think additional security is going to cost your school? If your school can't afford books and a DVD drive you probably won't be getting any additional security.

So you must be good with the status quo.
 
D.B. Cooper:

You are over-stating the “...no teacher...” regarding carry in schools. Do some searching about “White Boy Rick” and his crew who took over when he went to jail. We’re taking about extreme violence across 5 states, crack dealing. machine guns, grenades, plastic explosive, dynamite, kidnapping a student...who later escaped. I had to defend the 5 student witnesses and 400 others.

I am the former Michigan high school principal who went face-to-face with “White Boy Rick’s” crew. I didn’t have my MCPL at the time, so the Michigan State Police had me take my longguns to school with me. I used to go from my office to the range, at MSP request, so the punks could see, not only was I armed, I really am as-good of a shot as I claim. I shoot shotgun primers at 100 and 200 yards for craps and giggles.

An additional note of interest, we had no county sheriff department due to a failed millage. The Alpena State Police were 25 minutes away. It was all on me, and 100% classified. Not even the Board was allowed to know, not even the superintendent. About 10 times, I faced-off with these punks.

Here’s the problem: many current educators are “sheeple”. I’m a tiger. Fire the soft targets. Hire the tigers. Fifty years in martial arts has engendered in me the will to do whatever needs doing to survive, to protect my family and my students! Tigers! The best tigers have claws and guns.

Dr. ER Shaw
(Retired Graduate Professor)

Oh, and as a grad prof, I converted many of my education students into MCPL holders.
 
If you believe that arming teachers is a bad idea or not practical, what other solutions do you have? How much do you think additional security is going to cost your school? If your school can't afford books and a DVD drive you probably won't be getting any additional security.

So you must be good with the status quo.

I'm not okay with the status quo, and I don't think armed teachers is completely unworkable. I think it has a lot of pitfalls that need to be addressed. Most of all, I don't want people to think it's some sort of magic pill that fixes everything.

I think armed teachers should be only part of a much broader solution. I think we need to get serious about hardening schools. I was at a staff meeting on Friday where we were informed there are 38 exterior doors in our main building, and we can't have 38 guards in the school. Well duh, just permanently remove and wall off most of those doors. We need a single access point to our school. We need fencing around our school with a single access point. No one without business at the school should be allowed access to even the parking lot. I have a public sidewalk just outside my portable classroom (think mobile home). Last year, I had homeless people living under my classroom. (You can't make this stuff up.) We don't have a single metal detector in our school, even though there were three guns confiscated last year (that's just the ones I've heard of.)

There is a crap-ton of things we can do that would make our schools safer; arming teachers should only be seen as an auxiliary, last-ditch component to school security. Think about this: if we refuse to limit access to, and harden the security of, our schools, and instead rely solely on armed teachers, we will still have shootings inside schools that armed teachers will have to deal with. (Admittedly, we will have LESS shootings in schools, and that's a good thing.) But if we harden our schools' physical security and prevent shooters from even getting into the building, only relying on teachers' call to arms after all other measures have failed, we are that much more ahead of our enemies.
 
Fire the soft targets. Hire the tigers.

So???? Fire anyone who doesn't want to carry a gun?

I'll make two points.

A.) This is the crap that give the NRA and gun owners a bad name. You make us all look like the cartoon character redneck on Michael Moore's "Bowling for Columbine" ("I loves my gun...LOVES my gun.")

B.) This is why I'm in a union, so some principal can't fire because I'm not a likeminded good ole boy.
 
There is a crap-ton of things we can do that would make our schools safer.
Absolutely!

But most of these "crap-ton of things" will cost money and likely increase taxes.

... arming teachers should only be seen as an auxiliary, last-ditch component to school security..
Why?

Voluntary conceal carry by teachers who already own guns/conceal carry permits cost nothing ... and perhaps nominal cost for additional training.

People are demanding we "DO SOMETHING". Let us:

1. Implement short-term no or low cost solutions like allowing voluntary conceal carry by school staff nation-wide with additional training.

2. Set up federal grant programs (President Trump will likely support such programs) and I am sure we can even set up national FUND ME to cover cost of guns and training. If free guns and training were available, more school staff may volunteer to conceal carry.

3. Push law makers to work on other short-term and long-term solutions (But likely these solutions may cost modest amount to substantial amount of money which will likely increase taxes)
.

So, would you support these short-term/long-term solutions?
 
Last edited:
These ideas are all still nothing but bandaid solutions to the effects. Until you address, treat and cure the causes, this will become an ongoing (and ever more expensive exercise). The FL event should never had happened. Students knew about him, his adoptive/foster parents knew about him, the neighbors called police about, the school admin knew about and the FBI was warned, and yet the Bloomie/Soros puppets want to blame the NRA and guns, when it was their mighty "we'll protect you" government that utterly failed. Reports have been coming out that the school district had been either not reporting or under reporting criminal and behavioral issues for a while to keep their stats looking good.

Until this country addresses it HUGE issues with depression and other mental health problems, no amount of arming teachers or bulletproof glass will prevent this. Instead of wandering on campus, a shooter can wait nearby the bus area and kill kids; or take out an entire school bus with 50+; follow certain kids home, etc.

Address the cause, eliminate or minimize the effects.
 
I agree with addressing the underlying causes but the fact is, current "system" failed in Florida shooting. And we can't start to spend money on things that haven't happened yet when we are trying to spend money on things that have happened.

And people are demanding we "DO SOMETHING" now.

Allowing school staff to voluntarily conceal carry guns they already own is something we can do NOW with no or little cost while we/law makers work on other short-term/long-term solutions.
 
In the public sector increasing the budget is often the real goal. Effective and inexpensive options are often rejected in favor of more costly ineffective ones.
A cheap solution to any issue provides no reason to demand a budget increase.
 
In the public sector increasing the budget is often the real goal. Effective and inexpensive options are often rejected in favor of more costly ineffective ones.
A cheap solution to any issue provides no reason to demand a budget increase.

I have worked in both private and public sector. I have never been to a public sector meeting where this was true. Low cost solutions are always looked at. However, TCO is an issue that is considered. Of course, other factors weigh in.

As an example, when a department I was in was looking for new cars 4wd was a necessity. Another investigator and I voiced a recommendation for smaller vehicles like the Subaru. The decision was made to go with the Tahoe because it is what the deputies drove and the Sheriff wanted us to present a unified appearance when we showed up somewhere. I throw this in as an example where, yes, cost was not the driving factor. However, the lower cost solution was considered.

These ideas are all still nothing but bandaid solutions to the effects. Until you address, treat and cure the causes, this will become an ongoing (and ever more expensive exercise).

Until this country addresses it HUGE issues with depression and other mental health problems, no amount of arming teachers or bulletproof glass will prevent this. Instead of wandering on campus, a shooter can wait nearby the bus area and kill kids; or take out an entire school bus with 50+; follow certain kids home, etc.

Address the cause, eliminate or minimize the effects.

Agreed, NPR has an interesting label, "deaths of despair."

The despair problem is not going away until it is addressed. However, as a nation we have not even reached a point of agreement that there is a problem; further, we have not agreed on what the problem is.

Some say the problem is economic; but even there we have disagreement. Some say the economic problem is too much inequity and economic stagnation, other voices claim the problem is that there is not enough inequity.

Some identify social isolation. Much of this social separation is the result of lifestyle choices that people feel are not choices at all, such as long commute times and the resulting isolation from community. This leads to a greater reliance on government to present solutions that, in previous times, were addressed by social organizations. Other sources of social isolation are what we are doing right now, using technology to substitute for real interaction. We know this is harmful, particularly to youth. However, as a society we have decided to just not look at that elephant.

These things are just the tip of the iceberg. We avoid addressing the root problems, the causes of despair, out of fear that the solutions will infringe on "liberty" or inconvenience us. It comes down to the reality that even if we, as a society, agreed on the problems and decided to address them, it will be a fast, or inexpensive fix.

Yes, developing a training regimen for armed teachers and allowing those who choose to, to take part is a band-aid solution. Yes, it is easier to say, "just fix the underlying social issues." However, saying and doing are two different things and are both put off to some point in the future. A training regimen for armed teachers and allowing those who choose to, to take part is a band-aid solution. That being said, it is something we can do now, not at some point in the distant future.
 
I have worked in both private and public sector. I have never been to a public sector meeting where this was true. Low cost solutions are always looked at. However, TCO is an issue that is considered. Of course, other factors weigh in.

As an example, when a department I was in was looking for new cars 4wd was a necessity. Another investigator and I voiced a recommendation for smaller vehicles like the Subaru. The decision was made to go with the Tahoe because it is what the deputies drove and the Sheriff wanted us to present a unified appearance when we showed up somewhere. I throw this in as an example where, yes, cost was not the driving factor. However, the lower cost solution was considered.

No offense meant, your example contradicts the first part of your post. Considering and rejecting a low cost alternative in favor of a better looking more costly option is not an example of fiscal responsibility.
My point is simply allowing teachers and staff to carry at school if they wish costs nothing and can be accomplished quickly, already has been in some places.
When this is suggested we immediately hear about the need for specialized training, hazard pay, providing guns and lockable storage, etc.
 
Last edited:
No offense meant, your example contradicts the first part of your post. Considering and rejecting a low cost alternative in favor of a better looking more costly option is not an example of fiscal responsibility.

I do understand your point, however, I was trying to point out that decisions are not always as simple as asking, "what is most expensive? let's do that!" Decisions are often complex, and, as in the private sector, frequently come down to a single person. In this case it was the sheriff, which is an elected position.

There was more to it than just trying, as you said it, "to demand a budget increase."


Back to the main point of this thread, I just had some teachers ask me for my opinion on the issue. I put in post #36 in this thread.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top