Blended Metal and the worthless, cruel videos that prove nothing.

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I think animals are property also, but unncessary cruelty is just that.

I don't trust PETA to tell the truth either. They have contributed to terrorist groups, and they have strong history of exagerating, stretching the truth, and utter hypocracy.
 
I wish some left leaners could see...

I wish some of the more left leaning people (like myself) out there could see the general negative reaction of this board to this topic. I think they would be suprised to find that most people who enjoy firearms or even hunting are not the cold hearted monsters as they sometimes are portrayed.
 
When shooting animals, shot placement is the key, with penetration a close second. It doesn't matter if you use a .50 BMG or a pellet gun, if the bullet perforates the heart, the animal will die quickly. If it hits the brain stem, it will be nearly instant. The only real differences are margin of error in hitting vitals, and slight difference in time to death due to difference in hole size.

Gelatin takes out the infinite, uncontrollable, unknown, immeasurable variables present with animal shootings, and gives you a very definite way of seeing how much damage bullet X does compared to bullet Y. If you measure that X bullet makes 2x as big a hole in gelatin than Y bullet, then you know that under identical circumstances in the field, X bullet will make 2 times as big a hole as Y bullet. But circumstances are never identical. The best you can do is generalize that X bullet is probably better, based on gelatin tests. If you actually went out and shot things with X and Y bullets, you would need to do literally thousands of shootings with each bullet to get anything of statistical importance.

If you flip a coin 10 times, you know what your chances are of it coming up heads 5 times and tails 5 times? It's not 1/2. It's closer to 1/4. Now imagine trying to find a statistical correlation between heads and tails, using a sackfull of coins, which can each only be flipped once. But all the coins have holes randomly drilled in them, some have the same thing on both sides, some are made of lead on one side and aluminum on the other, some have internal voids, some are bent, etc. Every single coin is different from the rest. And every single flip is different from the rest. How many flips would it take before you got the expected half and half? With a data set that screwed up, it might never happen. That's the problem with testing bullets on animals. No two animals are the same, even if you could somehow shoot every animal in exactly the same place every single time.
 
I must also say that these don't seem to be all that effective, sure they kill, but not that quickly. It could be an editing thing. It could be bad ammo. I don't know anything about this guy or his product, I am only saying some of this is necessary.I would prefer a bit more clinical approach.
 
I'm going to be taking LFI-II and LFI-III as soon as I can get the money together. Dropping the hammer on a living, breathing creature is an excellent exercise for someone who has never done it before. You really learn the reality of killing something and are forced to realize that bacon doesn't come from yellow plastic packages in the supermarket; it comes from a pig that was walking around and minding its own business just a few minutes before.

Of course, I've slaughtered enough animals that the initial shock has long since passed away. Maybe Mr. Ayoob will let me use a shohet's knife and make the sheep or cow kosher when the time comes :)
 
tellner said:
I'm going to be taking LFI-II and LFI-III as soon as I can get the money together. Dropping the hammer on a living, breathing creature is an excellent exercise for someone who has never done it before. You really learn the reality of killing something and are forced to realize that bacon doesn't come from yellow plastic packages in the supermarket; it comes from a pig that was walking around and minding its own business just a few minutes before.

Of course, I've slaughtered enough animals that the initial shock has long since passed away. Maybe Mr. Ayoob will let me use a shohet's knife and make the sheep or cow kosher when the time comes :)
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Kosher killing is even more cruel than what this vid portrays when done in slaughterhouses.
Biker
 
Cows I'll grant you. They take a long and painful time to bleed out. But I've done sheep and goats with bullets and traditional Jewish style. The results were identical. No more than a couple of seconds before everything went limp and no noticeable difference in animal distress during the process.
 
At what type of slaughter house have the people on here that say it is a long painful process been working? I worked at one for a sort period in high school and it was all done very quickly with a machine that fired a piston. And that was wy way back in the early 80's.:)
 
Yes, I was referring to cattle in slaughterhouses. I should have been more clear.
Biker
 
PlayboyPenguin said:
At what type of slaughter house have the people on here that say it is a long painful process been working? I worked at one for a sort period in high school and it was all done very quickly with a machine that fired a piston. And that was wy way back in the early 80's.:)
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To be a Kosher kill, the cattle can't die that way. You might google a bit.
Biker
 
In regards to testing live animals in general, not to this specifc video (which I won't download now since I'm at work)...

All kinds of consumer products are tested on animals. Lots of other scientific research is done on animals. I've even heard of dogs being drowned. It's necessary and vital because it saves the lives of people. Testing ammunition on animals is also necessary, as a verification of gel testing. Gel only simulates generic muscle tissue anyway, not bone or any organs which react differently than ballistic gelatin. If you think animals are more important than people, than I find you disgusting. Also, unless you are already opposed to all animal testing, hunting, and are a vegatarian, you'd be a hypocrite if you said it was wrong to test weapon effects on live animals.

Regarding Bulmer, though, that guy is a scam artist. His high-speed techno pseudo-military operator goobldey-gook is pure comedy.

CentralTexas, you can call PETA a terrorist organization, because it and its leadership support terrorism. You are comparing apples to oranges when you compare individual members of churchs and the NRA to the senior leadership and unofficial policy of an organization.
 
Creeping Incrementalism said:
In regards to testing live animals in general, not to this specifc video (which I won't download now since I'm at work)...

All kinds of consumer products are tested on animals. Lots of other scientific research is done on animals. I've even heard of dogs being drowned. It's necessary and vital because it saves the lives of people. Testing ammunition on animals is also necessary, as a verification of gel testing. Gel only simulates generic muscle tissue anyway, not bone or any organs which react differently than ballistic gelatin. If you think animals are more important than people, than I find you disgusting. Also, unless you are already opposed to all animal testing, hunting, and are a vegatarian, you'd be a hypocrite if you said it was wrong to test weapon effects on live animals.

Regarding Bulmer, though, that guy is a scam artist. His high-speed techno pseudo-military operator goobldey-gook is pure comedy.

CentralTexas, you can call PETA a terrorist organization, because it and its leadership support terrorism. You are comparing apples to oranges when you compare individual members of churchs and the NRA to the senior leadership and unofficial policy of an organization.
Click to expand...
Why do so many pro-firearms people have to use the "all or nothing" argument. It is one of the weakest arguments and does not hold water at all. It is almost as bad as "slippery slope" defenses. Anyone with a resonable mentallity realizes there are degrees to most every issue. You can be a realist and know that animals need be killed to provide food and even sometimes used for medical research and still be against things like cosmetics testing, un-needed cruelty and suffering, etc.
 
"Testing ammunition on animals is also necessary, as a verification of gel testing."

No. No it isn't. Not even for fancy new bullet technology hogwash... er... sorry about that. But no, animal testing is not necessary in this application. We have enough testing matterials and know how to bypass this sort of lowbrow testing. Drugs and other products is one thing... but bullets? Please. That's just being stupid. As far as this blended metal bullet technology goes - it's crap. Total crap. There is no magic bullet and there is no scientific way to accuratly measure results in live animal testing anyway.... there are too many variables. You would have to shoot thousands of animals to get a big enough sample size to be worthwhile... and even then it wouldn't prove a damn thing that other means of testing wouldn't have already told you.

Most of the guys for this crap are either guys selling it, or guys who have bought into it.
 
re:

gunner03 said:
I agree 100%,But without these kinds of real life tests, how do we find the most effective round? What looks good on paper doesn't always turn out that way. Most deer I have shot have made it just out sight before going down, so I don't see how they react.Looking at the ground tells the story if you care to look, but that's not as conclusive as video. As far as testing military rounds, if it saves a couple of our soldiers, I say test on! This has nothing to do with proper slaughter methods or hunting for that matter. The rounds being tested are combat rounds, and the information could save lives. At least the lives I care about being safe. It's all about the "stopping power" we all want.
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Because it still yielded nothing useful as to how a human being would react to the same wound. Shooting pigs to see what happens is nothing new. It didn't provide accurate information decades ago...and it still doesn't. It only
shows the relative destructiveness of a bullet in living flesh...not how the human nervous system would react to it.

I say foul. I agree with Biker. Watch how a man reates his animals to determine whether you want to have dealings with him.
 
Justin said:
Central Texas, you really ought to savor this, because it's probably the one and only time that I will side with the animal rights nutwhacks.

Stan Bulmer is an idiot and his "tests" are needlessly inhumane and yield no useful data.

Even a blind hog finds an acorn once in awhile.
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Justin,
You are officially an animal rights nutwhack now, sorry!
Actually being against animal cruelty doesn't mean you even favor animal "rights", just humane treatment.
CT
 
gunner03 said:
I agree 100%,But without these kinds of real life tests, how do we find the most effective round? What looks good on paper doesn't always turn out that way. Most deer I have shot have made it just out sight before going down, so I don't see how they react.Looking at the ground tells the story if you care to look, but that's not as conclusive as video. As far as testing military rounds, if it saves a couple of our soldiers, I say test on! This has nothing to do with proper slaughter methods or hunting for that matter. The rounds being tested are combat rounds, and the information could save lives. At least the lives I care about being safe. It's all about the "stopping power" we all want.
Click to expand...

We have more than enough data, we know what kills. We are limited in what type of rounds we use by agreement in war anyway. Totally bogus argument overall. If you need to shoot something how about-Ballistic Gelatin, enemy combatants, criminals, the homeless, door to door salespeople and telemarketers.
CT
 
PlayboyPenguin said:
I wish some of the more left leaning people (like myself) out there could see the general negative reaction of this board to this topic. I think they would be suprised to find that most people who enjoy firearms or even hunting are not the cold hearted monsters as they sometimes are portrayed.
Click to expand...

Until they get to the "Sex Offender" status for sex with animals thread. Then they would be concerned how many "gun owners" don't have a problem with sex with animals....
CT
 
CentralTexas said:
Until they get to the "Sex Offender" status for sex with animals thread. Then they would be concerned how many "gun owners" don't have a problem with sex with animals....
CT
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I never saw that one...That one is quite a strech for me. However some might even like that...I have always felt a few of those PETA people are a "little too fond" of animals if you get my drift.:D
 
Creeping Incrementalism said:
In regards to testing live animals in general, not to this specifc video (which I won't download now since I'm at work)...

All kinds of consumer products are tested on animals. Lots of other scientific research is done on animals. I've even heard of dogs being drowned. It's necessary and vital because it saves the lives of people. Testing ammunition on animals is also necessary, as a verification of gel testing. Gel only simulates generic muscle tissue anyway, not bone or any organs which react differently than ballistic gelatin. If you think animals are more important than people, than I find you disgusting. Also, unless you are already opposed to all animal testing, hunting, and are a vegatarian, you'd be a hypocrite if you said it was wrong to test weapon effects on live animals.

Regarding Bulmer, though, that guy is a scam artist. His high-speed techno pseudo-military operator goobldey-gook is pure comedy.

CentralTexas, you can call PETA a terrorist organization, because it and its leadership support terrorism. You are comparing apples to oranges when you compare individual members of churchs and the NRA to the senior leadership and unofficial policy of an organization.
Click to expand...

Wow, you do realize much animal testing is for liability issues only? Do you support that? I kind of doubt if you talk to every PETA member that they will all say they support terrorists as you say they do.
Then you say-
"CentralTexas, you can call PETA a terrorist organization, because it and its leadership support terrorism. You are comparing apples to oranges when you compare individual members of churchs and the NRA to the senior leadership and unofficial policy of an organization"

How do you know what the "unofficial" policy of an organization you don't belong to is? How do you know all PETA members support terrorism? Guess what, the NRA is an organization, I belong to it. Some liberals say it has a secret unofficial racist/nazi/whatever policy. Doesn't make it so...

The PETA members I know here in the animal rescue groups would be very offended I'm sure. These are members of several political parties and some are not political, all working for the benefit of animals only. I bet many if not most have never heard of ELF/ARF etc. I could personally care less about the future of our environment, I don't have kids and I will be dead then, I sure don't support ELF.
Here is something you need to watch on HBO, I'm sure it's all a fraud though since all animal lovers have a secret terrorist agenda.:rolleyes:
http://www.hbo.com/docs/programs/dealingdogs/
CT
 
1911Tuner said:
As a hunter and meat eater, I was also sickened by these frames. There's a vast difference between slaughter correctly done...putting the lights out with a brain shot...and shooting an animal through the body just to see its reaction and how long it takes it to die. There's also a difference between tying an animal in order to study its agony and terror and taking a buck in open forest.
Click to expand...

I feel the same way. About midway through the video, one of the pigs thrashed about for quite some time. I kept thinking, "finnish it off, it's suffering". Killing animals is often necessary, forcing them to suffer is not.

JH
 
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