Bludgeons, blackjacks and slungshot

Status
Not open for further replies.
When I was in LE I carried a sap in the sap pocket of my trousers.

Had to attend a class before being allowed to carry a sap.

I never used it on duty.

In the class we were told that striking the skull is a no-no but any place else was a legitimate target such as the face, nose, jaw, elbow, knee cap, a number of muscles, hands, kidneys, collar bone. I would imagine that a strike in any of those places would be painful (remember bashing your elbow) and probably result in a certain degree of incapacitation.

I also had a pair of sap gloves (weighted driving gloves) and a palm sap. I don't have these two anymore but do still have the two flat saps that I carried. Wish I could still carry one.

I know first hand that a strike across the forearm with a baton can result in a broken bone. A strike with a sap would probably be much the same.

I also have a weighted thingy that I use to hold a book open. It's about a foot long. Made of a nylon webbed strap folded over and stitched on the sides and filled with lead shot. I suppose it could be used to slap someone up side the head in an emergency.
 
I enjoy reading these threads and remembering the good old days(?) when cops and bouncers carried such impact weapons.

However, I caution you, using one of these now days will probably get you a felony conviction for aggrivated assault. Mere possission makes you a person of special interest to young cops.
 
My wife has one of these:

http://www.levenger.com/PAGETEMPLAT...?Params=category=17-671|level=2-3|pageid=6678

I got it out and played with it after sideshooter's post. It seems a little too light for a knockout but would do the job if applied to a bony prominence. The weight must be a stone as it is non-magnetic and a little light to be lead. This would be a whole lot better than nothing on an airplane if something went wrong.

BTW, she only paid $9.95 for it at the Barns and Nobel book store.
 
I was watching a DVD titled WORLD WAR II:The German Front. In one of the segments, they discussed how the Nazis planned their takeovers.The first thing they did was try to establish a "Fifth Column" of Nazi sympathizers inside the country they wanted to take over.
Once they had a cadre of Nazi sympathizers, they began a campaign to "soften up" the opposition. Guess what was their weapon of choice? Yep, you got it-a blackjack!
 
While there is no 'safe' way to knock someone out the SAFEST way would be with something slow and heavy, relatively soft that spreads the force out over a large area. When properly applied, a shot filled beavertail sap should be no more dangerous than knocking someone out with a boxing glove. Sure, there have been a few deaths in boxing but they are exceedingly rare. More people die from football related injuries, (usually broken necks) than die in the ring from closed head injuries.

Sticks and clubs are much more dangerous when applied to the head as they concentrate a large amount of force on a small area. This tends to fracture the skull. They also take a lot more room to use and pose a danger to other bystanders. A sap fills a niche in controling someone in aa close in scuffle that no other impact weapon can. I wish that I had known about these when I worked as a bouncer. It would have solved several problems.
 
Last edited:
I just stick with my change purse...holds enough quarters (2 rolls worth) for parking meters, tolls booths, and payphones and has a place for business cards, is easy to carry, made from very sturdy leather, and I can access it one handed....

perrin_walletcopy-1.jpg
 
Last edited:
You can still buy them. Several links have been posted. Get one that contains shot rather than a solid piece of lead. They seem to be safer and just as effective. The sap coin purse linked above would be less likely to land you in court. Watch the video.
 
Last edited:
Mine made it through both the Indy airport and the Houston airport last fall on a trip south without any problem. I was asked what it was. I replied "change purse for phones and parking meters", got a raised eyebrow but that was it.
 
The sap coin purse

Yes I've made a couple of those over the years What I'm looking for is a "how to"/ "tutorial" so I can create the capsule for the shot,and the spring or spring steel channel. Instead of recreating the wheel.

I am considering to purchase one and reverse engineer it to learn the construction.
 
The Gangs of New York

Yesterday I got a copy of the book THE GANGS OF NEW YORK, which the OP referenced in the first post. Thank you for making me aware of that book. I read a little of it last night. Think its going to be a good read.
I liked the quote by Inspector Alexander Williams "there is more law in the end of a policeman`s nightstick than in a decision of the Supreme Court".
 
I ran across a copy of the book at the bookstore Thursday, and brought it home with me. Looking forward to reading it.

Seems like a trend :D.
 
If you can translate following

Sentances into English:

"Tim Sullivan buzzed a bloke and a shakester of a reader.His jomer stalled"

Then your`re either very,very old and kept bad company.
OR
you read Vocabulum-The Rogue`s Lexicon by Geo.Matsell,1859.
OR
you read the list of slang terms in The Gangs of New York.
 
I'm rereading "Gangs of New York" for the umpteenth time- good story there.

Someone mentioned nylon webbing sewn down the sides. It's made in a tubular weave as well. I made the sheath for my Buck 426 out of a piece of 2" tubular webbing- cost about sixty cents a foot at the yuppie mountain climbing equipment shop- and they make it in a 1" width as well. Would probably hold shot better than a flat piece sewn down the sides if you wanted to make a page holder.
 
HOUSTON, TEXAS - 1865

" Last Sunday I spoke of the first Federal troops that ever came to Houston, the 'Army of Occupation'...in an Army such as that, there were 'toughs' and a few of those broke from time to time and caused trouble. However, they did not always get away with the play, for when a six-shooter was at that time as much a part of a man's outfit as his boots or shoes, there were always two sides to an attempted knockdown...

The slingshots used by the thugs were made of lead and were about the size of a large egg. They were fastened to a leather thong and this was slipped over the wrist and securely knotted there. It was a fearful weapon and and with it skulls and bones were easily crushed. An old German was found on Washington Street one morning with a crushed skull, while a negro had his shoulder crushed somewhere out on Main St. No doubt there were other cases, but if so, I have forgotten them. I do remember three casualties on the other side. One was a soldier found on Main St. just above where the Rice Hotel stands. He had been shot through the head and the slingshot attached to his wrist told the story of why he had been shot..."

True Stories of Old Houston and Houstonians' Dr. S.O. Young, Houston, 1913
 
rio nueces said:
HOUSTON, TEXAS - 1865

" Last Sunday I spoke of the first Federal troops that ever came to Houston, the 'Army of Occupation'...in an Army such as that, there were 'toughs' and a few of those broke from time to time and caused trouble. However, they did not always get away with the play, for when a six-shooter was at that time as much a part of a man's outfit as his boots or shoes, there were always two sides to an attempted knockdown...

The slingshots used by the thugs were made of lead and were about the size of a large egg. They were fastened to a leather thong and this was slipped over the wrist and securely knotted there. It was a fearful weapon and and with it skulls and bones were easily crushed. An old German was found on Washington Street one morning with a crushed skull, while a negro had his shoulder crushed somewhere out on Main St. No doubt there were other cases, but if so, I have forgotten them. I do remember three casualties on the other side. One was a soldier found on Main St. just above where the Rice Hotel stands. He had been shot through the head and the slingshot attached to his wrist told the story of why he had been shot..."

True Stories of Old Houston and Houstonians' Dr. S.O. Young, Houston, 1913




While I appreciate you sharing a story that helps highlight some historical use of the items in question, there is some assumptions I would like to point out in the quoted story that may be missed:


First due to a certainly strong dislike of the military occupiers at the time there is going to be a motivation to blame them for more of society's ills than they are even responsible for. This was in 1865, the North had just won the war, many bad things were done during the war, emotions and hatred were high, and they were occupying.
This means while the troops, many young rowdy men, certainly were responsible for their share of trouble, it must be kept in mind that there would be a motivation to blame them for many unsolved attacks, and various others problems in society beyond what they actually caused.
I doubt the soldiers were the only ones carrying or using such items at the time, just the most disliked group at the time there who did.

Second the
"a six-shooter was at that time as much a part of a man's outfit as his boots or shoes"
also must be kept in context.
These guns were expensive then, and while certainly they may have been common amongst some classes, like the well to do southern gentleman of the time who had tremendous influence in society, as well as various middle aged men of many classes, and some young men, they were not common amongst everyone.
Otherwise there would not have been a large number of young men running around with various other weapon types as their primary defensive, offensive, or mutual combat weapons. From the infamous bowie knife, to various saps and other devices. We know these other weapons were quite common, weapons many men had, and some of them would even be targeted by legislation. Often times targeted more severely by legislation than the six-shooters that were found less frequently in the hands of the lower income and undesirable classes.



Third the assumption that everyone with such a device was up to no good is clearly given, especially in
" told the story of why he had been shot"
but is entirely an assumption.
Especially if such devices were entirely legal at the time (and even if they had not been).
It may be an assumption correct many times that such an armed person was up to no good, but wrong many other times.
That would be similar to an assumption today that young men carrying a folding knife as a potential weapon were up to no good. Or that one found dead with one in the hand (or even similar to a knife on a belt, in a pocket, or clipped onto clothing, because of how saps were transported) on the streets was using it in an offensive capacity rather than a defensive capacity when killed.
Clearly that would be an assumption, and they may very well have had one ready for potential defensive use while walking through a bad area at night and were attacked or there was a robbery attempt and they got shot.
The common way to carry such things was also tied around the wrist, and hidden within the palm, like when walking through a bad area at night. It could be deployed by dropping it from the hand, or out of a sleeve and swinging it from the loop tied around the wrist or simply hitting something with it held in the palm with the tie acting as a retention device.
So it doesn't even necessary show it was intended for use offensively just because it was tied on the wrist either, and was not being transported as one normally did when they wanted it potentially available.
The soldiers were also in a hostile foreign land far from home filled with people that hated them and everything they represented. You can be sure there was soldiers murdered by southern men that didn't like them, or were ambushed and killed by locals when the opportunity presented itself. The need and desire to be capable of effective defense even without a firearm would be high.
Some incidents could also have been mutual combat scenarios where someone was injured or killed when the situation escalated to or involved weapons.
Rather than the assumptions given by the article that bad guys used the saps, and anyone with one was bad, and anyone injured by one was victimized. While the guy that shot someone with such a device and took off can be presumed to have only been defending themselves from a thug, and was not an attacker, robber, or mutual combatant themselves.
 
Last edited:
Zoogster,
In reply I can only say that Dr. Young was there at the time, and we were not.

He was born in Houston in 1848, educated in Virginia, a physician in Houston during 'reconstruction days', and a Houston newspaper reporter later on.
The book is entitled "True Stories of Old Houston and Houstonians" and, while personal feelings and local sentiments must be considered, I have no reason to doubt the veracity of his reports.

You could take it up with him, but I'm afraid he is not available.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top