Bobo's pocket auto comparison chart

[P95Carry]

Many folks will have seen this during the thread Bobo had running a while back. The chart has inevitably been a ''work in progress'' as small changes have been made/added.

The latest version is kindly being hosted by Marshall at Mouseguns.com and Bobo hopes that any updates will be reflected there as and when they may occur. The links are -

Pocket Auto Size Comparison JPG (240k)

Pocket Auto Size Comparison PDF (500k)

Thx Bobo for all the considerable work you have put into this.

 

[kidcoltoutlaw]

thanks

nice work

 

[otomik]

dp

 

[otomik]

you need to recheck those weights to make sure they're with empty magazine, just noticing it's off on the P-3AT (you also need to show the different stats of the 1st and 2nd gen P-3AT which are CNCed differently).

also if you could tell the user what grain of bullet the statistics are using, I'm sure some manufacturers would supply information using 90-grain 9mm bullets or never loading the chamber (the chart never says if it's loaded chamber)

maybe we could have some more information on how to compare these with the ubiquitous snubbie. perhaps give the cartridge weight in grains for common defensive snub loads in .357, .38 Special, .32 H&R, .22Mag that way people could come up with a fairly accurate carry weight for any of the hundreds of j-frame type revolvers out there.

nice work, very illuminating seeing it all scaled to each other with the hand illustration.

 

[BevrFevr]

how about adding the cz rami and the tiny glocks?

some of those are pretty small too.

 

[otomik]

the CZ Rami and subcompact Glocks are over 6'' in length, the focus is "pocket" autos.

 

[BillinNH]

Aren't there any weeny 45s that meet the size ctriteria, such as the Para-Ord Wart hawg, etc.? Maybe they are too long.

Bill

 

[otomik]

Aren't there any weeny 45s that meet the size Hriteria, such as the Para-Ord Wart hawg, etc.?

no, none. and I think it was meant to be narrow in scope, which is why .22 and .25 are out as well because they were the classic "compromise too much pocket pistols" and it's meant to focus more on the new generation of low compromise pistols. give it a moment and it becomes aparent that .32s-.40s in this size are a recent phenomena.

P.S. the size criteria is "under 6 inches", the Taurus Millenium Pro .45 comes close at an advertised 6 inches in length

 

[Bobo]

you need to recheck those weights to make sure they're with empty magazine, just noticing it's off on the P-3AT (you also need to show the different stats of the 1st and 2nd gen P-3AT which are CNCed differently).

The stats are for the second generation model, because this is mostly what is available NIB now. The only even slightly significant difference in stats between the first generation (FG) and second generation models (SG) is about 0.20 oz. in additional weight for the SG. The photo is of a FG, but the left side of both models is so similar that I believe it's a very good portrayal, even so, the next time I update the chart I'll change it to a SG photo.

also if you could tell the user what grain of bullet the statistics are using, I'm sure some manufacturers would supply information using 90-grain 9mm bullets or never loading the chamber (the chart never says if it's loaded chamber)

The grain size was "average" for the caliber. The difference in total weight due to grain size would be so slight, most people could not tell the difference for "pocket" carry purposes. All Fully Loaded weights include one in the chamber. I'll add that to the notes for the next update also.

maybe we could have some more information on how to compare these with the ubiquitous snubbie. perhaps give the cartridge weight in grains for common defensive snub loads in .357, .38 Special, .32 H&R, .22Mag that way people could come up with a fairly accurate carry weight for any of the hundreds of j-frame type revolvers out there.

Don't think I'll go there. I just threw the snubbie in for size comparison not so much weight. Many of the new snubbies are very light, but they are much larger in size than most people realize.

nice work, very illuminating seeing it all scaled to each other with the hand illustration.

Thanks for kudos and thanks for the suggestions.

 

[Bobo]

no, none. and I think it was meant to be narrow in scope, which is why .22 and .25 are out as well because they were the classic "compromise too much pocket pistols" and it's meant to focus more on the new generation of low compromise pistols. give it a moment and it becomes aparent that .32s-.40s in this size are a recent phenomena.

You are quite correct. When I started the chart I was looking for the best pocket auto for me, personally. I had ruled out anything less than .32. Later, I actually decided the .32 was too small for my purposes but I opted to leave them in anyway, since I had already done the research.

P.S. the size criteria is "under 6 inches", the Taurus Millenium Pro .45 comes close at an advertised 6 inches in length

Correct again. I also had to put a limit somewhere on overall size. For my purposes, less than 6" was a good limit. Some of the slightly larger pistols such as the Taurus Millenium Pro series the Para Warthog series that BillH mentioned, the Springfield XD series, and the smaller Glocks among others, might fit larger front pockets, but in addition they are also generally wider and heavier. This makes them a bit too much for comfortable pocket carry in my opinion.

I had to be very careful how the limits were set for the chart because it could suddenly grow into a book if the limits were too inclusive. As an example, I had thought about adding revolvers with the same criteria (.32 or larger and less than 6") to the chart, but this would mean including hundreds of additional guns.

I'll put out the same offer I've put out a few times before (and had no takers)...
If somebody would like to take on a similar project, do the research for the stats and find good photos, I'll be glad to put all the stats and photos into a chart. You can PM me on this forum and we can get started any time.

Any takers?

 

[jferrell54]

I have at times carried my Glock 33 in the front pocket but it is heavy. I also have a Kel-Tec P11 that is perfect for front pocket carry. I polished up the P-11 and it works great, it never malfunctioned even before the polishing. I know there are those that don't like Kel-Tec's but I like mine a lot.

 

[Zerstoerer]

Real Weights

Bobo,
you should get some sort of Nobel prize for your work.
Very nicely done. How about another chart for the next size guns like Kahrs, Glocks and other chopped up compacts?
Also, since all manufacturers cheat when advertising weights (who carries an empty gun around) I suggest some kind of realistic standard like "Weight fully loaded".

 

[elmo18b]

I found this chart very helpful for myself and my wife. I am in the military and when we went to buy her a handgun I realized that I knew nothing of the pocket pistols. The first pistol that we tried was the XD subcompact and it was alas too large. I can not in good faith go with anything less that .40 for her and the chart really helped me look size wise.

 

[Bobo]

Bobo,
you should get some sort of Nobel prize for your work.
Very nicely done. How about another chart for the next size guns like Kahrs, Glocks and other chopped up compacts?
Also, since all manufacturers cheat when advertising weights (who carries an empty gun around) I suggest some kind of realistic standard like "Weight fully loaded".

Thanks for the thanks!
As far as another chart goes - see my offer above.
I totally agree with you on the weight issue. That's not the only thing manufacturers are not consistent or accurate with. One example, in Kahr's advertising they give OAL which most people would think meant OverAll Length, but the number they give is slide length only, not overall length. Others don't include small protrusions such as safety switches, slide lock switches, magazine catches, grips, or sights in their measurements.

Something like this is what I would propose as a Measurements Standard:

 

[Zerstoerer]

BOX and Loaded Weight

Bobo,

again excellent advice.
I always measured my handguns by your "box" standard. Even a empty magazine will affect the numbers. On my HK USP the mag will portude about 2mm more if the mag is loaded. That together with the weight increase should be reflected. My IMI "Baby" Eagle with 16 rds of 124gr. 9mm becomes a brick.

We need some new standard like SAAMI for size and weight - just wonder how to go about that - maybe suggest it to those manufacturers who would most benefit form it - N.A.A. or Keltec?

 

[zahc]

There is an error in the Kahr .40 entry, width seems to be missing.

 

[Bobo]

There is an error in the Kahr .40 entry, width seems to be missing.

Thanks zahc. Good catch! It will be in the next update.

 

[Geno]

This is AWESOME!

I am currently having this very problem...which to buy? What are the comparisons? I have all of the BIG guns with massive loads that I will ever need.

What I now need is the small, in-pocket type pistol for summer use and back-up. Thank-you so much!

Doc2005

 

[Bobo]

I am currently having this very problem...which to buy? What are the comparisons? I have all of the BIG guns with massive loads that I will ever need.

What I now need is the small, in-pocket type pistol for summer use and back-up. Thank-you so much!

Doc2005

You're welcome. I started the chart when I was comparing pocket pistols for my own use. I finally ended up with a Kel-Tec P-3AT. I added a laser sight and widened the grip. Now it's just about perfect for my intended purposes.

Good luck on your search. Hope the chart makes it easier.

 

[Geno]

Bobo--a WORLD of thanks, from me and my family!

I have been looking very long and hard, serious pondering of size, quality, reliability, power, etc. Your posting clarified nearly everything that I lacked to be able to make an "informed decision".

Last week, I bought my honkin' Springfield XD-45 ACP, massive chunk of whoop-butt! But, that is NOT a summer gun, nor are my 1911s. I needed something manageable. Today, I finally nailed the decision down to a NAA .380 or a Kel Tec .380. When I picked up the NAA and saw that the frame said Kel Tek, I KNEW that I would have to buy the little 8 Oz. wonder! So, I did. It shoots awesome, accurate enough, and especially with the Win. Ranger 95 Gr. loaded hollow points, I am certain it will suffice!

Thank-you for your assistance. For next month I am considering either the the Cobra .380 ACP or the NAA .380! Does anyone have any suggestions? All feedback regarding either the Cobra or the Kel Tek will be appreciated, opinion or facts. Thanks again Bobo, and all others who help make this post such a wonderful contribution!

Greatly appreciative,

Doc2005

 

[Bobo]

I have been looking very long and hard, serious pondering of size, quality, reliability, power, etc. Your posting clarified nearly everything that I lacked to be able to make an "informed decision".

Last week, I bought my honkin' Springfield XD-45 ACP, massive chunk of whoop-butt! But, that is NOT a summer gun, nor are my 1911s. I needed something manageable. Today, I finally nailed the decision down to a NAA .380 or a Kel Tec .380. When I picked up the NAA and saw that the frame said Kel Tek, I KNEW that I would have to buy the little 8 Oz. wonder! So, I did. It shoots awesome, accurate enough, and especially with the Win. Ranger 95 Gr. loaded hollow points, I am certain it will suffice!

Thank-you for your assistance. For next month I am considering either the the Cobra .380 ACP or the NAA .380! Does anyone have any suggestions? All feedback regarding either the Cobra or the Kel Tek will be appreciated, opinion or facts. Thanks again Bobo, and all others who help make this post such a wonderful contribution!

Greatly appreciative,

Doc2005

Thanks for the thanks! Congrats on your new acquisitions.

I like the NAAs both the .380 and the .32NAA. They were a bit heavy for my purposes, but they are very nicely made. The triggers are a bit heavy also. And I could almost get two Kel-Tecs for the price of one NAA.

That's why I went with the Kel-Tec P-3AT.

My local gun shop got some Cobras in a couple of weeks ago. I was kind of interested because they are so inexpensive. They are very heavy and clunky feeling. The trigger is way to close to the grip for me. I think you would need to have a small hand with short fingers to shoot it even close to comfortably. Might be an OK glove box gun - if it gets stolen you're not out much.

 

[Zen21Tao]

Aren't there any weeny 45s that meet the size Hriteria, such as the Para-Ord Wart hawg, etc.? Maybe they are too long.

Bill

They appear to have overlooked my .45 ACP AMT Backup. It is 5.7" long, 4.1" in height, and only 1" wide in the grip and slightly less than 1" in the slide width. Compare that to the sizes 9mms, .40 s&w, and .38 special pictured.

 

[Bobo]

They appear to have overlooked my .45 ACP AMT Backup. It is 5.7" long, 4.1" in height, and only 1" wide in the grip and slightly less than 1" in the slide width. Compare that to the sizes 9mms, .40 s&w, and .38 special pictured.

I tried to get info on these guns from the supplier.

This was the communication:

----- Original Message -----
From: "xxxxxxxxxx" <xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 10:59 AM
Subject: AMT Information

I would like information on your AMT series of handguns. Photos, specifications, availability, etc.

Thank you,
xxxxxxxxxxxxx


call us @ 800-272-7816- thanks- HS

======================================
I thought this was a very terse and unprofessional response.
Why is there so little info on their web site? www.highstandard.com They have prices but no photos or specifications.
Doesn't seem like they are very interested in selling or servicing these guns.
If they are so disinterested in the guns, why would I or anybody else be interested?
I do not want to spend the time to deal with them in order to add the gun to the chart.
If you or anyone else would like to supply all the pertinent info and photos for any of these guns and forward it to me, I would be happy to include them in the chart.

I will need:
-----------------
Gun Name
Frame: (materials)
MSRP: ($xxx)
Operation: (DA, DAO, SA, etc.)
Capacity: (example: 6 +1)
Overall Length: x.x”
Overall Height with standard mag inserted: x.x”
Overall Width: x.xx”
Weight Empty (includes empty mag): xx.x oz.
Weight Fully Loaded (filled mag and one in the chamber, any functional ammo in the proper size is OK): xx oz.
A good profile photo (left side preferred - right side is OK)

I can be PM'd on this forum.

Bobo

 

[BillinNH]

Cobras and small 45s

It may be that 45s are deliberately left out of the survey as being too big a caliber to include with the others, If so, OK by me. If not, the Cobra Patriot 45 meets the dimensional criteria and is a helluva fine concealed carry 45. One of my favorites. As to the other Cobra designs, they have a different genetic history and I am not directly familiar with them although they seem to have originally been inspired by the Kel-Tec P-11, a gun I am a big fan of.

Bill

 

[Bobo]

It may be that 45s are deliberately left out of the survey as being too big a caliber to include with the others, If so, OK by me. If not, the Cobra Patriot 45 meets the dimensional criteria and is a helluva fine concealed carry 45. One of my favorites. As to the other Cobra designs, they have a different genetic history and I am not directly familiar with them although they seem to have originally been inspired by the Kel-Tec P-11, a gun I am a big fan of.

Bill

No BillinNH, there is no upper limit on caliber size.

The criteria is:
Pocket Semi-Automatic Handguns
Overall Length of Less Than Six Inches - .32 ACP or Larger

The reason the Cobra Patriot is not included is because it is 6" long. There are other guns that are exactly 6" long and were left off also.

Just missed the cut, but had to draw a line somewhere.

Bobo