Bolt-Action 500 S&W Magnum

[R.W.Dale]

As someone whose shot long guns in 500/454/460 take it from me you may not be what y'all expected.


Weaker 500 is tolerable but from a handi rifle full pressure loads quickly become unmanageable. We're talking scope caps flying off cannot keep ahold of the forend unmanageable.

460 is even worse. Scoping one is suicide for your forehead recoil is like a bomb going off in the stock, I even had my TC carbine shear off a scope RING!

YES I've shot a bunch of 45/70 from hot to mild. No they're not even close to these 60k psi + handgun rounds in a light synthetic stocked rifle. That much fast powder accelerating the bullet that hard n fast into the rifling is gonna kick! You simply WOULD NOT want to shoot one of these in a rifle any lighter than the current full sizes hunting rifles in belted magnums.




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[RPRNY]

I have no experience with 500 S&W or 460, but quite a bit with 454 Casull. I believe, that Max pressure for 454 is 60,000 psi whereas it is 65,000 psi for the former two?

I shoot fairly hot loads of H110 and 300 gr XTP or 300 gr hardcast GC lead from this carbine:



a nearly 9.25 lbs 20" Handi rifle with quite a good recoil pad and I have to say, the recoil, while not at the levels described above, is pretty damn significant. Markedly harsher than full boat 45-70 loads in the long barreled H&R Buffalo Classic. Not sure I would want to experience the recoil described above for the 460 and 500!

 

[brnmw]

This post is pretty close to the one I put out about the 7.62X54Rmm in a "newer" mftr. bolt-gun like a Rem. 700 or Win. M70. Even though the 7.62X54mm is on the same page as the .308 Win. just cheaper to shoot being my main issue ammo wise. >>> The first thought that came to me on a bolt-action .500 S&W was in fact a .45-70 Gov't. nothing more than a novelty I think at best because I am not sure how much cheaper it would be to re-load the ammo, certainly buying factory ammo it would not be worth it .45-70 Gov't is still cheaper per box.

So for me no I would not buy one. (Ammo performance & price being the determining factor)

 

[CraigC]

But 7.62x54 and the .308 are ballistically the same. However, I don't see how anyone can say the same about the .45-70 and the .500S&W with a straight face. Unless you think a .45Colt and a .500Linebaugh are "the same". The .45-70 is at its best with cast bullets in the 400-420gr range and 40,000CUP pressure range, or above in some rifles. The .500S&W is also at its best with heavyweight cast bullets. These are non-expanding bullets so diameter can't be made up for with expansion. So the .500 is undeniably a bigger hammer that will make a bigger hole. Whether or not you need a bigger hammer to do a certain job is another matter entirely. If all you're hunting is deer, you're beating yourself up for nothing.

 

[bluetopper]

True, the 500 performs best and really shines as compared to other calibers using heavyweight cast bullets and once sighted in at a long distance is remarkably accurate from shot to shot out of a Handirifle barrel. Also I find cleaning up after the 500 from a rifle barrel shooting hard cast gas check bullets is almost pointless as all traces of powder and soot seem to be gone burning slow handgun/fast rifle powders since such powders are designed to be shot out of shorter barrels. My barrel stays shiney clean and I shoot it quite a lot.
And yes the 500 caliber in both handgun and rifle is a novelty and yes probably completely unnecessary seeing as how we have access to so other many calibers, but then again you can say that about any caliber. However the 500 will leave the biggest hole from a firearm available to the common man.

 

[JShirley]

Some of us like bolt-actions better than levers. Bolts are less complicated and stronger. Just that simple, in addition to the problems with using a lever from the prone.

In reality, it would be a wonderful idea if it were not already for the .50AK and .50-110 cartridges. Cartridges which are already head and shoulders above the .500S&W. They also do their job with powder capacity, not jacked up pressures.

The .50-90/100/110 is, as you know, a black-powder round. It is a large round, at 81mm. The .500, in comparison, is 57mm long. Personally, since any firearm in .500 is going to be a strong modern action, I would prefer a fast-handling carbine in .500 to a more cumbersome one chambered in a cartridge that either has to be loaded with black powder, or custom-built to handle smokeless powder. Performance will be similar in either case, unless you blow up your new old magnum since there isn't good load data for smokeless in the big fifty.

I'd love a 17" barreled, ghost ring-sighted bolt-action carbine in .454 or .460 to match my BFR. I think such a rifle would be an excellent dangerous game defense rifle, and could be loaded with warm .45 Colt loads for taking deer and hogs the rest of the time. Avoiding the rim, though, a .50 Beowulf hand-loaded to higher pressure, or a .458 Socom would be options.

It sure would be nice to have a bolt carbine as compact as one in .454 Casull could be, though.

However the 500 will leave the biggest hole from a firearm available to the common man

Um...except for .79. That's a little bigger. IMO.

John

 

[brnmw]

But 7.62x54 and the .308 are ballistically the same. However, I don't see how anyone can say the same about the .45-70 and the .500S&W with a straight face. Unless you think a .45Colt and a .500Linebaugh are "the same.

My point more being not comparing the 7.62 vs. 7.62 per say was more looking at it from a perspective buyer standpoint (Different thread completely). Having fired a .500 S&W Mag. I can't deny it's power, however seeing how I own a .45-70 Gov't and in a broad general comparison a 300 gr.> .458" bullet flying through the air at an est. 1,800 fps @ 2,600 ft-lbs. vs. a 500 gr. > .500" bullet doing 1,500fps @ 2,500 ft-lbs. all from the muzzle. (I am speaking of non-Trapdoor >but Lever-action levels.) Cost of the ammo is enough to make me not buy it.

Looking up some of the #'s per box of 20 rounds:
.45-70 Gov't. est.$30-40.
.500 S&W Mag. est.$60 >(on avg.)

I almost purchased a .500 S&W Mag. revolver some years ago and decided to stick with my S&W M29 .44 Mag. (I saw it as something of a novelty even as a pistol to be honest,... Just wanted it to say I owned one.)

I guess I have just never jumped on the bigger hole is better camp, if that were the case to me my .375 H&H Magnum would not be adequate to a .458 Win. Mag. so I just wasted my money because I should have gone bigger. (And the .45-70 Gov't has been said that if you hand load can be loaded to .458 Win. Mag. levels or so I have heard... I do not hand load. (I need a workshop, and currently can't fit one in.)

And for the price of a "NIB" .500 Magnum Bolt gun Personally I would rather I guess just add a .458 Win. Mag. to my collection.

 

[bluetopper]

A guy on you tube said he built a 500 from a Mosin-Nagant pretty easily.

 

[CraigC]

Cost of the ammo is enough to make me not buy it.

Unless you're independently wealthy, handloading is required to achieve any considerable degree of proficiency with any of them. The high cost of components is just part of the game when you go over a .45cal, rifle or sixgun.

The .50-90/100/110 is, as you know, a black-powder round.

Doug Turnbull will build you a .50-110 1886 or 71 in any configuration or barrel length you like. Fully compatible with heavy smokeless powder loads.

As far as the length issue, length hampers the .50-110 or .50AK just as pressures levels hamper the .500S&W. Both present design issues. The point being, either way, that there are already .50cal options available and there doesn't appear to be a significant market for them.

http://www.turnbullmfg.com/store.asp?pid=34270&catid=19872

 

[JShirley]

Those are both lever guns.

 

[HOOfan_1]

If Ruger could expand on it's .357 and .44 Mag 77 models and keep going with a others in .454Casull, .460S&W and .500S&W we'd have a nice line of big bore handgun cartridge long gun options to fit in with the handguns.

The problem I see that kills the idea is that so many folks seem to feel that they need stuff ripping out the barrel at up around 3000 fps even for close in or casual target plinking. So a line of bolt or lever rifles in the handgun calibers is only going to appeal to a limited market. The trick is will that limited market pay the price that goes with a lower volume production run.

A .460 S&W Rifle would sell well in Indiana I think. I've seen people claiming 2800 FPS with 200gr. bullets in a rifle barreled .460 S&W

 

[AKMtnRunner]

Honestly I don't see the point of lugging a long gun around to shoot a handgun's cartridge. Especially one with such high pressure and a more rainbow shaped trajectory than existing rifles.

 

[HOOfan_1]

Honestly I don't see the point of lugging a long gun around to shoot a handgun's cartridge. Especially one with such high pressure and a more rainbow shaped trajectory than existing rifles.

Handgun cartridges are the only thing legal for hunting in Indiana.

A 200 grain .460 S&W at 2700 FPS would have a similar trajectory to a 150 gr. .30-30 at 2400 fps

 

[303tom]

Would anyone like to see a manufacturor make a bolt action 500 S&W or do you think it would sell?
I have a 500 in a Handi-Rifle and I love the thing. I just thought how much better a bolt gun would be in that caliber. It would be a great format for a reloader using less expensive hard cast gas check bullets also.

Did you ever think of looking into one of these in .50 B&M Short ?

http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/50-B-M.html

 

[RPRNY]

Handgun cartridges are the only thing legal for hunting in Indiana.

Legal Rifle ( from the 2011-12 Handbook of Regulations in Indiana):
Rifles with cartridges that fire a bullet of .357-inch diameter or larger; have a minimum case length of 1.16 inches; and have a maximum case length of 1.8 inches are legal to use only during the deer firearms and special antlerless seasons. Some cartridges legal for deer hunting include the .357 Magnum, .38-.40 Winchester, .41 Magnum, .41 Special, .44 Magnum, .44 Special, .44-.40 Winchester, .45 Colt, .454 Casull, .458 SOCOM, .475 Linebaugh, .480 Ruger, .50 Action Express, .500 S&W, .460 Smith & Wesson, .450 Bushmaster, and .50 Beowulf.

There are several people hunting Indiana with 45-70 rifles using cases trimmed back to 1.8". As weird as it sounds (and the bizarreness of political regulation knows no bounds), your parameters are 0.35" and 1.8". Inside those bounds, imagination and hand loading skills give you a lot of room to play with. A 357 or 44 levergun would seem to do the job but lots of room to work in.

 

[CraigC]

Those are both lever guns.

Yes but your post was in reference to the powder used.

 

[JShirley]

Not really. I began by stating reasons why I prefer bolts to levers, went on to address potential problems using the venerable cartridges you suggested as being better, then repeated my desire for a bolt action while stating the caliber I'd prefer.

 

[Win73]

As someone whose shot long guns in 500/454/460 take it from me you may not be what y'all expected.


Weaker 500 is tolerable but from a handi rifle full pressure loads quickly become unmanageable. We're talking scope caps flying off cannot keep ahold of the forend unmanageable.

460 is even worse. Scoping one is suicide for your forehead recoil is like a bomb going off in the stock, I even had my TC carbine shear off a scope RING!

YES I've shot a bunch of 45/70 from hot to mild. No they're not even close to these 60k psi + handgun rounds in a light synthetic stocked rifle. That much fast powder accelerating the bullet that hard n fast into the rifling is gonna kick! You simply WOULD NOT want to shoot one of these in a rifle any lighter than the current full sizes hunting rifles in belted magnums.

That surprises me. Are you saying it would kick worse than my .30-06 in my Handi Rifle?

 

[HOOfan_1]

That surprises me. Are you saying it would kick worse than my .30-06 in my Handi Rifle?

using a recoil calculator.

assuming two 7 pound rifles

a 500 S&W shooting a 350gr bullet at 2000 fps behind 42gr. of powder
recoil velocity 17.71 fps
recoil energy 34.11 ft./lb.

A .30-06 with 150 gr. bullet at 3000 fps behind 52gr. of powder
recoil velocity 13.43 fps
recoil energy 19.60 ft./lb.

A .338 Winchester Magnum shooting a 225gr. bullet at 2700fps behind 69gr. of powder
recoil velocity 18.03 fps
recoil energy 35.34 ft./lb.

So you can see the 500S&W would be closer to shooting a 338 Win Mag than a .30-06

 

[R.W.Dale]

And a recoil calculator doesn't account for burn rate and bullet acceleration rates.

Yes a 500 kicks much much harder than a 30-06 handi. And yes I've shot both.




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[JShirley]

So, an 8-lb rifle shooting a 360-grain at 1900 fps (.454 energy) would have how much recoil? Pretty sure it'll be less than a 12 gauge 3" slug, which is 50% heavier and less than 150 fps slower...

 

[burk]

What would a bolt action 500 do that one of the bolt action slug gun 12ga shotguns not do?




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THIS!

I've looked at 500 S & W for carry in AK bear country and it is amazing how similar the ballistics are to a 12 ga slug. Would it perform better in a rifle, I don't know, I'm seeing some remarkably good slug guns these days.

 

[Inebriated]

I would rather just use .45-70... Not to say it's better, but there's nothing in NA that needs to be killed any deader than a .45-70 could do.

Also not trying to say that I wouldn't be interested in a rifle like that just for fun.

 

[JShirley]

What would a bolt action 500 do that one of the bolt action slug gun 12ga shotguns not do?

Have better sectional density, smaller overall platform, and faster action working under pressure than a 12 GA bolt. If you want defense, which would be one my my main ideas of what a "Thumper" is good for, if you choose 12 GA, it'd be silly not to use a slide-action. At close range, any accuracy difference between a bolt and a pump won't be enough to matter, and a slide-action is much faster.

If one is married to the bolt-action idea, though, one of these powerful but compact big-bore cartridges seems like a better idea than a bolt 12. I have a bolt 12. I invested a significant amount into having it customized some 12 years or so ago. I could've had a real rifle for what I dumped into the silly thing.

Again, one of these short but powerful rounds would seem to be a pretty good setup in a compact but fairly heavy rifle. A 17" heavy sporter barrel, adjustable Axiom stock for compact transportation, LOP adjustment, and recoil control, and ghost ring sites would be my idea. I'd take one preferably in .454 Casull or .460, but the lack of rim would make such a rifle in .50 Beowulf or .458 SOCOM much more practical.

 

[CraigC]

Shotgun slugs are so overrated it turns my stomach. How the .500 could be compared to a slug I have no idea. The effectiveness of shotgun slugs lives in myth and legend. Even the best of the slugs like the Black Magic cannot compare to a standard weight bullet in the .500. Here you're looking at two handgun bullets of comparable sectional density. They have been proven on the largest game on earth. They are a 355gr .44 and a 425gr .475, their sectional density is around ~.270. The Black Magic on the 'looks' impressive but has a sectional density of .161, comparable to a 230gr .45ACP. Yes, slugs make big holes in deer but for critters much bigger, they lack the penetration necessary.



Because the damn things have a hollow base.