Bolt Action Rifle Choices

[Jaywalker]

I have a rifle problem, and I think I have the answer, but I could use an "idiot check" to make sure I don't do something idiotic when something simpler might work.

Here's my probem. I have a Ruger M77 RL (tang safety) Ultralight that I like a lot. I also have a .270 that's worked for me for years. The problem is that they are in the same rifle, and together they don't work for me. Like most folks, I don't notice the recoil when I'm hunting, but the six-pund rifle is pretty brutal off a bench. There's no flinch involved, but after about 10 rounds my shoulder is quivering too much to hold a steady aim. Because of the discomfort, I don't practice as much as I should. I need something that I can and will practice with.

Usually, this means a heavier rifle, but I like this one. It carries well in the mountains and I can keep it ready to fire (rather than slung) better than the heavier rifle I had before this one. The stock fits me, which isn't all that common a thing with rifles I've looked at. The tang safety is right where I look for a safety, from my Sheridan air rifle growing up to my current Beretta O/U shotgun. Finally, I have an emotional attachment to this one, having made a (probably) shot of a lifetime on a mule deer in Utah. So this rifle, in some form, stays.

I considered handloading reduced power loads, but I'm not really interested in relaoding anymore. Besides, this isn't a particularly accurate rifle, for all that I like it. It gives me maybe three-inch groups at 100 yards. That's not nearly good enough to encourage me to maintain the caliber.

I've considered keeping it and buying another rifle - maybe a Browning, since that has a tang safety, or a used Ruger - but I don't really want more than one rifle at a time. (I know, that's a sickness, and I'm working on it.)

It boiled down to me re-barrelling this one to a caliber that's more accurate and kicks less, but that's also in a long action.

The answer appears to be 25-'06, 6.5X55, and 7X57. I think I like the 6.5X55 best of the three.

I called one gunsmith and discussed it with him. He thought the project sounded promising and laid out an approach. He'd true the action and install a good barrel (he recommended Douglas, but that isn't the issue - he'll do any of them) for $375. He recommended floating the barrel back to about an inch from the action and glassing back there. I forget the quote for that, but it's something. Then there's shipping. I expect I'll be into this around $500. Coincidentally, that's the price for a new rifle.

Okay, that's the story - what's the verdict? Am I missing something?

Jaywalker

 

[Abominable No-Man]

Well, sound like for the 500 bucks your estimating, you could find another 77 ultralight with a tang safety in .308. That would cure your sickness, too.

 

[ACP230]

Have you tried practicing from offhand instead of off the bench?
The bench magnifies recoil.

A couple posts above might be another caliber to consider. The .250 Savage fits a Ruger RL very well and is a light recoiling rifle.
Factory ammo is still available for the .250. The Remington 100 grain Core- Lokt has always shot well for me.

Just a thought.

 

[mainmech48]

If the caliber and the rifle suit you so well, why not just fit it with a Pachmayr "Decelerator" butt pad or the like? They're available "pre-fit" for Rugers with either wood or synthetic stocks and cost less than $30.

If you just want something to use for range work and load development, there are lots of different "slip-on" pads that'll work nicely, and can be removed easily before you go hunting.

Another option are the "PAST" recoil pads which are worn over your shirt. They come in RH or LH in a couple of different thicknesses. Also in the $30 range.

Cabela's Shooting catalog has an entire page of options. Why go to the hassle and expense of changing rifles or calibers when you can solve the problem with a cheap accessory?

Just my $0.02

 

[Johnny Guest]

Hey, guys - - -

You're NOT giving the proper answers. He LOVES that rifle and just wants to adapt it in a way which is less punishing.

I can relate to a pet project. I see nothing wrong with the concept. For my part, I think I'd choose the 6.5 x 55 ctg. A light-contoured barrel, in 20" length, and you'd have a real custom-made-for-you rifle. YOUR feeling about the particular rifle really counts for more than our conjecture on the subject.

For the money you're going to invest, though, I think you MIGHT locate an M77 RL in one of your chosen calibers. .25-06 would robably be the most common.

Jaywalker, best of luck to you, sir.
Johnny

 

[dakotasin]

not sure what your toleration to recoil is... a 25-06 is a fine option - but it is based on the 30-06 case, as is the 270... you'll drop some recoil because of the lighter bullets, but not that much.

i would install either a decelerator or a sims vibration laboratory pad, and then use a gel pad between the butt of the rifle and my shoulder for bench work. also, a properly fitted decelerator pad makes a rifle look real sharp, too.

good luck.

 

[Jaywalker]

Johnny's identified my concerns. I really want some version of THIS rifle, including the dents on the stock it got from sliding down the hill when I dropped it on the scope. (Yes, I realize how lame that is.) While the 25-'06 would meet the recoil requirements, I've not heard that it has the accuracy that makes the 6.5X55 famous. It's also a bit short of the heavier bullets. It's a possiblity, though.

I have tried practicing sitting and prone, but not so much standing. All are better than from the bench. The 250 Savage is a short-action cartridge, I think, and wouldn't be as reliable in this action as a longer cartridge.

I've been looking locally for a PAST pad from a place that doesn't say, "All sales are final," in case I don't like it. I fully agree that I need one, though. I hadn't heard of these "pre-fit" Pachmayr Decelerators. I'll look into that, thanks. Maybe there'll be one I can add myself without changing the length of pull.

As to toleration for recoil, I would have said about 20 foot pounds. I've learned the "feet per second" component has an affect, too. The 25-'06 will drop my predicted recoil from 16 pounds to 12, and drop the rifle rearward velocity about one fps. I have a Decelerator on my shotgun, and I like it. It cost me $140 to have it put it there. Still, this might be the answer, especially coupled with floating and bedding the action. I'll look into it.

Is $375 in the ballpark for a barrel replacement when action-truing's included?

Jaywalker

 

[dakotasin]

i'd say $375 isn't bad for action truing, new barrel, and barrel install... you could do a little better, but not so much as to get bent about the price for a semi-custom gun when you're done.

$140 is way high, though, for the recoil pad and install. the pads run in the neighborhood of $30, and should you choose to have a 'smith grind it for a perfect fit, that will run another $20 or so (at least that's what i get charged). you can do the pre-fit route, but invariably they don't fit perfectly - which is why i have the 'smith install them on rifles that i want to have look very nice (i have several pre-fits, too, though). depends how discriminating your eye is... if you aren't hypercritical, then the pre-fits work rather well for $30.

 

[4 eyed six shooter]

In addition to the recoil pad, you could put one of the mercury recoil reducers in the buttstock of the rifle. This would add a little weight, but the combination of the mercury recoil reducer and the butt pad really makes a big difference. I have done this for several customers and all have been pleased with the results. The mecury recoil reducer is just a tube filled with mercury that will slide right into the bolt hole in the stock. It must be put in so that it does not move. The recoil pads and recoil reducer are available from Brownells @ www.brownells.com.
Good shooting, John K

 

[seeker_two]

Why not get the same style rifle in .223 or .243? You would have a less punishing rifle for practice (esp. w/ .223 ammo prices) and still have the same controls & feel of the .270.

As for the .270's accuracy problems, why not have it bedded like the smith wants to do with the new barrel?

Just a few thoughts....

 

[BusMaster007]

Brother, have I got an answer for YOU!

OK, that was the opening sales pitch...here's the deal, baby...!

Seriously, you've got a great rifle that you trust and love, just like a woman...SO, how 'bout a new dress for her?

I'm on a roll with the sales pitch angle, here, so forgive my after work enthusiasm.

IF you took your very good rifle and put it in a different stock that has some features to spice it up AND take away the pain, you might be happy with keeping it ( since it will still be the same rifle, after all ) and get away with spending only a couple of hundred bucks, including having it bedded.

Here's a link to Bell & Carlson:

http://www.bellandcarlson.com/

Follow it to OUR PRODUCTS; then to Premier Thumbhole Style; and you will see the stock and your model of rifle posted there.

http://www.bellandcarlson.com/product8.html

"Premierâ„¢ Thumbhole Style

This beautiful thumbhole design fits you better so you feel more comfortable and shoot more accurately. the Monte Carlo cheek piece provides better, quicker target acquisition, the thumbhole with palm swell provides better grip and helps reduce recoil. Includes Pachmayrâ„¢ Deceleratorâ„¢ recoil pad and sling swivel studs.

#T111- Interarms MK X
#T051- Mauser 98
#T011- Remington 700 ADL
#T021- Remington 700 BDL
#T023- Remington 700 BDL Left Hand
#T031- Ruger M77 (old style tang safty)
#T041- Winchester Model 70 Post 64 "


I put my Remington 700 BDL in 7mm Rem.Mag. in one of these stock and it made it feel and look JUST RIGHT!
Hope you give it some thought.

 

[BusMaster007]

before:

 

[BusMaster007]

after:
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=378812

 

[Onslaught]

This is just one guy's opinion and all... but I've done a LOT of buying, selling, swapping, and modifying rifles in my short 33 years...

It's been my experience that once you change one thing, you've changed the whole thing (regarding sentimentality). I had a Ruger 10/22 that I put a Choate folding stock on when I was a teenager. That rifle and I shared thousands of "Rambo wannabe" rounds together. I had long ago started feeling a little silly about being a grown man with an "Assault Squirrel gun", so it jus sat in the safe. About a year ago, I decided to dust off the Ruger so my son could shoot it. I sold the Choate folding stock, and all the 30 round mags I had for it (at a profit) and bought a "grown up" regular stock and a couple of factory mags.... Well, I shoulda just bought a new rifle and left the old one alone, because now when I see that rifle, it's not the same rifle I grew up with. It's like a whole new rifle and even though it's sitting right there, I miss the old Ruger.

My vote (regardless of only wanting to own one) is to buy another rifle in the caliber you're interested in. Heck, buy another one JUST LIKE IT, but in another caliber.

If it's really that sentimental, you're gonna regret messing with it. Once it's gone, you might even find that the caliber held a special little place in your heart as well.

 

[BusMaster007]

I LIKE!

 

[BusMaster007]

I can understand what was said about changing the rifle, but, the man said he only wants ONE rifle.
A stock change can easily be changed back to the original, if sentimentality gets in the way, and it will save about half the cost of getting a new rifle.
A new scope might be a good idea, too...

 

[Jaywalker]

Hmm. I'm getting the impression that such support as my idea has is weak, at best, primarily based upon the costs. Also, there are a couple of really valid alternatives, such as PAST shields, new recoil pads/recoil reducers, and stocks that would let me keep one improved rifle. Even bedded, though, I'm not sure I'll ever get really good accuracy from a Ruger barrel.

Onslaught's viewpoint I hadn't considered. Once I change it, will it still be the same rifle? That is important to me and I'll have to think about it.

dakotsin, I agree that $100 to cut the stock is high, but that's the price charged by the only gunsmith in the area that I'm aware of.

seeker_two, I've been looking for a .243 RS or RL for years, on and off, and haven't found it yet. There is a .223 RL on GunsAmerica now, though. I found the pre-fit - thanks - but there don't seem to be any for the pre-MKII, and the ones they do have for Rugers are a good half inch thicker than the standard red pad. Don't think that'll work.

A new rifle is workable, I guess, but it's likely that once I get over the shock of having more than one, I won't be able to stop. Who knows, someday I might have three or even four rifles... I think I'm in a co-dependent relationship with this forum, and you guys are enablers.

I need to think about this. Thanks.

Jaywalker

 

[Futo Inu]

"but it's likely that once I get over the shock of having more than one, I won't be able to stop."

That IS a risk you may have to take. This is why I won't buy an AR - all my friends who have, have ended up with 3+ ARs each, and even more uppers. No reason you can't stop at 2 though - just be disciplined.

I agree. Pad the existing one, then if/when you get over your sickness, get an addit tang-safety rifle in .260Rem, .257Robts, or .243 Win. Friends of the RKBA do not buy Rugers, nor do they recommend doing so to others.

 

[J Calhoun]

I'm going to go out on a limb here. I don't think the caliber is inaccurate. The .270 is a great cartridge. I think there is something that can be done to improve performance and keep the rifle "together".

There are a few things you can check. 1) The most obvious is barrel float. The stock can push against the barrel and make it fling the bullits around. This is easily checked by taking a piece of paper (a dollar works well) and sliding it between the stock and barrel. Work it all the way down to the receiver. There should be no resistance. If there is, you can remove some wood from the barrel channel until the problem spot is gone. 2) The action screws should be really snug but not overly tight. If they are not both snug, the action will try to rock up or down.

You can do the bedding job yourself for under $30. Brownells has everything to do it. If I can do it, you can too.

Recoil can be handled with a Decelerator pad (I have one, very nice) and even having a muzzle break installed on the barrel will help a bit.

Accuracy in the ammo area will involve trying various brands and weights until you find something good. If you want the rifle to shoot as well as it can, you'll have to reload and do some load developing.

If the above doesn't work, your not out a lot of money and can rebarrel if necessary.

If you are using a scope, make sure that it is not moving. The rings and bases can get loose. Also check that the sights are not moving if using them.

 

[dakotasin]

jaywalker- in this time of globalization, the internet, and etc, if you feel like you are being overcharged, make a few phone calls... and then determine if sending your gun off will offset the high price of the local 'smith, etc.

i'm a huge supporter of 'the little guy', and certainly don't mind paying a few extra bucks to keep his services available to me... however, that does not give him carte blanche to blatantly rip me off...

anyway, all i wanted to say on this subject... i'll let the thread go back to its intention.

 

[Art Eatman]

Me, I think I'd send the stock off to get a Kick-Eez recoil pad installed, keeping the LOP as is. All reports say they're really good at reducing felt recoil. The pad alone retails for around $35 to $40.

Then, free-float the forearm and put a plastic shim in, such that about a five-pound pull on the stock, away from the barrel, is needed to allow insertion.

Try a couple of different brands of ammo, and see what happens.

Make haste slowly, when it comes to spending money.

, Art

 

[Jaywalker]

Okay, I think I'll give the bedding/recoil pad approach a try, with the first phase bedding, since it won't affect the outside appearance. If I can't get it to shoot, then I won't bother with the recoil pad.

Bedding. This sounds pretty simple, given that I'm not trying for target accuracy. Right now it has the pressure point that Ruger built into it down towards the fore-end tip. I can remove that while doing the dollar bill thing, but I've never been sure exactly what needs to be glassed. Can anyone point me to step-by-step instructions?

Recoil pad. I have a couple of Pachmayr Decelerators on some other long arms, but Art pretty persuasively posted back in May some links to both the sorbothane and Kick Eez web sites, and they look a little beter than the Pachmayr, assuming I get an answer to the question I just sent Kick Eez:

I'm considering my first Kick Eez recoill pad, having only used factory and Pachmayr Decelerators in the past. The Decelerator I've used has an interesting function which I'd like to compare with kick Eez, if you don't mind.

My Decelerator material is different (slicker? - harder?) at the heel than on the rest of the pad. This difference in material allows a rapid mount without the armpit drag that the softer material would cause. I like this capability. I can see, though, that it's only necessary because of the "grabby" feel of the rest of the pad. Can you address the Kick Eez pad material "feel," please?

Jaywalker

 

[Art Eatman]

Just guessing, but wouldn't wax on the K-E pad stop the "grabbing"?

Not knocking glass-bedding of the receiver, but I've had really good results from just free-floating the barrel and then shimming the tip with wax paper. I just cut a half-inch strip and fold it back and forth until it's thick enough that it takes about a five-pound pull to allow insertion. Carefully trim the excess with a razor. My uncle's theory on this was that it acts much like the shock absorber on a car's spring, making the barrel's vibrations uniform from shot to shot. Does just like the BOSS, but cheaper.

Somebody makes a little insert dealie that can be installed near the forearm tip, with a nylon screw that can be adjusted to vary the tension of forearm to barrel.

Art

 

[Jaywalker]

Okay, that's even simpler than glass bedding, and looks like a fine place to start. For removal of wood, are we talking about some kind of wood-working chisel, or a dowel rod wrapped in sandpaper?

As to the wax on a Kick Eez, I'll have to defer to someone who's at least seen one, which I haven't.

Jaywalker

 

[Cosmoline]

WARNING!

If you're thinking about 7x57 or 6.5 Swede, keep in mind that your Ruger, and most other modern rifles, do NOT use the same ultra-fast twist rate that allowed the old safari rifles to keep the very long, heavy "crossbow bolt" bullets stable. Most use 1 in 10, which is good for standard-length bullets. Some even use 1 in 12 to favor smaller, faster bullets. But if you want to use 175 grain or 195 grain 7mm bullets or 165 grain 6.5 mm's, you may find them flying all over the place.

THe only modern rifles in these old-time chamberings I know of that use faster twist rates factory standard are Ruger No. 1's. If you want to recreate the rifles that made these cartridges famous killers, you may need to get a custom barrel.