Bolt Action Rifle Suggestions

[Red Tornado]

The only one I have first hand experience with is the Savage. I just got an older Model 12 HB in .223. It's pre-accutrigger, but shoots less than an inch with any decent ammo, and SMK's are almost through the same hole.

Since you mention long range, you'll probably want to use heavier bullets at some point and that will necessitate a faster twist rate. The Savage is 1 in 9and works great up to 69 grains, but I haven't tried any heavier. Mine also shot sub-MOA with the only 45gr I tried.

I believe most of the rifles you listed are 1 in 12, which works for 55gr, and but it won't stabilize anything heavier than that.

I've been running searches in another window, and finally found this http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=158429 thread


I got some great info from the guys and it may help you too. Or, please feel free to disregard everything I've said as irrelevant if you wish.
Good luck,
RT

 

[mmike87]

Since you mention long range, you'll probably want to use heavier bullets at some point and that will necessitate a faster twist rate. The Savage is 1 in 9and works great up to 69 grains, but I haven't tried any heavier. Mine also shot sub-MOA with the only 45gr I tried.

I am still a beginning rifle shooter so I am going to start at 100 yards (no lauging, please!) and work my way out from there. I definitely want a rifle that outshoots me ... one that can go to longer and longer ranges as I become a better shot.

I think I am probably settled on a .308 now after doing some research on .223 vs .308 at longer ranges. I like the .308 because of availability of relatively inexpensive ammo (compared to other long range calibers.)

 

[Red Tornado]

I'm a fan of .308, so I think that's a great idea. However, I don't think you're really going to save any money on the ammo, .223 is usually a bit cheaper for comparable ammo. That said, I've used the South African surplus 7.62x51 and it's pretty good. (available at Cheaperthandirt.com) Search the board and you can find reports of pretty much all the surplus ammo floating around the country.

BTW, I was thinking about possibly changing my sig line to Mal's quote, but then I noticed you've got it. So I guess that's out, I'd just look like a copycat.

Oh, on your original question, I don't know, I haven't shot any of them in .308. I imagine they all shoot great, but my only .308 is a rebarreled 1903A3.
RT

 

[mmike87]

Sorry - I was not clear. The .308 is a cheaper ammo alternative to other larger long range calibers. A lot of reading I have done since the original post seemed to indicate that the .223 was not the best performer for long range shooting. Granted, I think they were referring to really LONG range shooting, certainly way beyond my capabilities right now.

I am sure I'd be happy with either .223 or .308 for what I'll be using it for. It probably really boils down to the gun. I need to find an Accutrigger equipped Savage and give that a whirl, it sounds pretty cool.

Sorry I took your sig line ... it was too good to pass up.

 

[NineHotel]

Mike - on the subject of LR performance 223 versus 308 - can you clarify what you mean by "performance"? Hunting? Anti-Personnel? Putting a round hole thru paper?

As a paper puncher, a 1 in 8 twist barreled 223 shooting 80 gr bullets runs paralle with the 308 and a 168 in the areas of wind drift and drop out to 700 yards. The 223 is a much more shootable cartridge, therefore your hit factor/group size/other measurements of accuracy will be better with the 223. This especially holds true in the hands of a beginner like you. The harder recoiling calibers help you learn bad habits, whereas the 223 will not be as likely to with very little recoil and muzzle blast.

For anti-personnel and hunting, no doubt the 308 kicks the 223's butt.

308s are a lot of fun to shoot as a "real" rifle cartridge, but the 223 is just a joy to shoot and very useful. Also very easy to reload. Cheaper to reload, even when making match quality highly accurate ammo.

 

[mmike87]

Thanks for the continuing information.

Primarily paper punching. But should I ever need to snipe Zombies after the "big one" hits, it may have to do anti-personnel work as well.

I don't do any hunting and have no plans to. I did years ago when I had much more spare time.

Originally, I favored the .223 simply because I already have a lot of .223 ammo on and hand and it was convenient.

 

[mmike87]

Update

Gander Mountain in Fredericksburg has two Remington 700 VS rifles in .223 for $649.

I checked around online, and that seems to be a fair price for this rifle.

I originally wanted the VSF with the fluted barrel. Online, it's about $100 or so more, and none are available locally in .223 at all.

Is a fluted barrel worth the money? Weight does not matter to me as most of my shooting with gun will be prone or from a bench using the bipod. No lugging it through the countryside.

Also, aside from corrosion resistance - does stainless has any advantage? I take good care of my guns and corrosion has never been an issue. A VSSF is well over $200 more than the VS. I'd like to put that extra $200 into optics (on top of what I would have spent on optics, anyway.)

I handled the Savage rifles with the "standard" black synthetic stock. The rifle was fine but the stock was awful compared to the HS stock on the Remington. If I were to get a Savage I'd have to see one with the McMillian stock. The Accutrigger was nice albeit a little weird.

I also handled a Tikka T3. They were right next to the Sako 75's. My God in heaven I liked the Sako 75. What a nice gun - and the rubber overmodling of the stock was pretty cool - for over $1000. I just couldn't love the Tikka after handling the Sako 75, and I liked the Rem better than the Tikka at the same price point - largely because of the Remington's HS Precision stock.

Any thoughts? I think I liked the VS and it seems like a good price. From what everyone is telling me you really can't go wrong with the Rem, Savage, or the CZ. Maybe it's time to just stop looking and buy the damn thing.

Then y'all can help me shop for optics.

 

[Beethoven]

Gander Mountain in Fredericksburg has two Remington 700 VS rifles in .223 for $649.

I checked around online, and that seems to be a fair price for this rifle.

Yes, that is a fair price.

Also, aside from corrosion resistance - does stainless has any advantage? I take good care of my guns and corrosion has never been an issue. A VSSF is well over $200 more than the VS. I'd like to put that extra $200 into optics (on top of what I would have spent on optics, anyway.)

Not really. Cosmetics is the only other issue; if you like the look of a stainless gun.

Otherwise, if you take good care of your guns and don't live in the swamp, you'll be fine with a non-stainless firearm.

I handled the Savage rifles with the "standard" black synthetic stock. The rifle was fine but the stock was awful compared to the HS stock on the Remington. If I were to get a Savage I'd have to see one with the McMillian stock. The Accutrigger was nice albeit a little weird.

I had the same reaction when I handled Savages; I was underwhelmed, especially after I had lovingly fondled my buddy's 700P.

The second I saw the 700P I knew it was THE gun for me, no questions asked.

Fortunately for me, it also happens to be one of the most popular and best rifles in its class.

The Savages are fine rifles, are legendary for their out of the box accuracy, but the action just isn't as smooth as my 700P, nor do they feel as nice overall.

Plus, the idea of buying a brand new rifle only to have to throw away the stock and buy a new one just rubs me the wrong way. (If you ever get really serious about long-range shooting, you WILL need a stiffer stock than the factory POS the Savages come with.)

I tried the accutrigger on one of those little display stands where they have nothing but the trigger on a little stand. It felt nice, and if it works that well on the gun, then so much the better.

I also handled a Tikka T3. They were right next to the Sako 75's. My God in heaven I liked the Sako 75. What a nice gun - and the rubber overmodling of the stock was pretty cool - for over $1000. I just couldn't love the Tikka after handling the Sako 75, and I liked the Rem better than the Tikka at the same price point - largely because of the Remington's HS Precision stock.

Any thoughts? I think I liked the VS and it seems like a good price. From what everyone is telling me you really can't go wrong with the Rem, Savage, or the CZ. Maybe it's time to just stop looking and buy the damn thing.

Then y'all can help me shop for optics.

Rem, Savages and CZ's are all damn nice rifles indeed.

Pick the one that speaks to you, and then you will be happy.

You know right now in your head which rifle you want, and you know it is a good rifle.

Stop tinking around and buy the darn thing and post pictures so that we can all congratulate you!

Though I wouldn't buy the VS before you handle the 700P.

If you like the stock on the VS, you'll probably fall over when you see the HS on the 700P.....so much beefier and sexier.....uber-tactical, yet totally functional......*droooooooool*

 

[mmike87]

Good luck to me for finding a 700P in stock anywhere around here. I have not even been able to find ANY CZ rifles in stock other than .22's - it's become downright frustrating.

 

[mmike87]

I finally bought one!

Though I wouldn't buy the VS before you handle the 700P.

Well, I guess I spoke too soon. Stopped by the gun show in Harrisonburg today, and there were not one but TWO Rem 700 Police rifles in 223.

One was slightly used and well over $800.

50 feet away was a NIB for $689. And, sitting right next to it for about $100 more was a .223 700 VSSF as well! For the first time I feel like a good a decent deal at a gunshow.

I got to say the price and the big-ass beefy stock of the 700 Police sold me on that gun - so I adopted it an took it home. I called a shop in Richmond earlier today and they priced the 700 Police at over $900!

Now - I need a Harris bipod. Is there anything else I need in addition to the bipod itself to put it on the gun? Do people typically mount the bipod to the first or second stud on the gun?

Also - I am on the hunt for optics. My price range for optics is in the $500 range or so. So, I guess it will be another 50 hours of reading online.

I'll probably also want to adjust the trigger down - it's very crisp and has no overtravel or creep but is a little heavier than I'd like.

Thanks all for the advice.

 

[Beethoven]

Well, I guess I spoke too soon. Stopped by the gun show in Harrisonburg today, and there were not one but TWO Rem 700 Police rifles in 223.

You are welcome.

One was slightly used and well over $800.

Maybe it has had professional mods done to it?

I got to say the price and the big-ass beefy stock of the 700 Police sold me on that gun - so I adopted it an took it home.

Told you so.

It is lovely, isn't it?

I am in love with mine!!

$689 NIB is a good price too. Most gunshops typically charge around $900 or more, but online under $700 is the price.

Now - I need a Harris bipod. Is there anything else I need in addition to the bipod itself to put it on the gun? Do people typically mount the bipod to the first or second stud on the gun?

The "S" model Harris bipod is popular because it allows the rifle to cant from side to side for use on uneven ground - you can extend one leg longer than the other and cant the bipod however you need it.

I was confused at first (and a little disappointed) because the "S" stands for "swivel," so naturally I assumed that it would SWIVEL from side to side.

It does not do that.

Anyhow, it is a good bipod and you'll like it. You should get the Pod-Loc to go with it. That will keep it locked at whatever angle you wish. (Don't know why Harris didn't build that into their bipods, but whatever.... )

No, you will not need any tools to install it; it just clamps on and is held in place by a tension screw that keeps the little arms clamped tight on the swivel stud.

Also - I am on the hunt for optics. My price range for optics is in the $500 range or so. So, I guess it will be another 50 hours of reading online.

I'll probably also want to adjust the trigger down - it's very crisp and has no overtravel or creep but is a little heavier than I'd like.

Thanks all for the advice.

Get this: http://www.riflescopes.com/departments/231/rifle_scopes/super_sniper_rifle_scopes.htm

I already did 50+ hours of reading online and after all that research bought the Super Sniper.

I am very, very happy with it.

If you go to any of the sniper boards; snipershide.com, snipercentral, etc., they all give it very positive reviews.

IMO, it is an excellent buy and looks great on top of the 700P.

Enjoy!!!

 

[mmike87]

The Super Sniper are all fixed power? Fixed power at 10x seems a bit high to me.

 

[Beethoven]

The Super Sniper are all fixed power? Fixed power at 10x seems a bit high to me.

Yes, they are all fixed power; 10, 16 and 20x.

Fixed 10x seems high?

Heck, I'm young and I have a hard time imagining less magnification than my 16x at 100 yards!

I could not fathom using a 10x at ranges greater than 150 yards or so.....

 

[NineHotel]

Bipod

Mike - check over on snipershide.com and do a search on "group buy bipod" - there was a Harris group buy going on over there.

You want the 9-13" notched leg swivel version BTW. The 6-9" swivel is a tad short for field work, and at 9" the 9-13 works well on the bench yet still in the field.

I have a SS in 10 power. I also bought, mounted up, and sighted in a 16x for a friend. You want the 10X; most everyone that sees it and the other powers (16 and 20) side-by-side agree. The 10X is very bright, clear and sharp; the 16 and 20 seem to give up some in all 3 areas, while still rugged and servicable. It is believed the issue is the design was originally for 10x, so when you cram 16 and 20 into the same tube compromises have to be made. The rear focus one is just fine if you'd rather not pop the extra $100 for the side focus. The SS is a great scope to start with and one you might keep. Best thing going for the $$ if you don't mind the size (big knobs and all) and worth 90% of what you paid for it if you decide to upgrade to a different scope in the future. Try that with any other brand than a Leupold or Nightforce or USO.

Also the SS 10X will not require a sloped base to get to 1k yards, so again being budget-minded you can start out with even Wal Mart lupy Rifleman bases or good old Weaver bases to get your rig up and going with the SS scope.

Good luck with the new stick! You'll need to find an accurate inch-pound torque wrench and torque the front and back action screws to about 50 inch pounds, not 65 with the stock screws. The middle one must remain loose; I recommend blue loc titing it, snug it so it holds the trigger guard securely but does not really exert any force on the action, and let the loc tite set up overnight. Have a local smith do it for you if you don't have access to the wrench or comfort in doing it. This needs done - Basic Setup 101 for the Remmy in the HS Precision stock.

Nothing really wrong with $11.36 a box Wal Mart Rem or Win 165 gr hunting ammo to get you started at the range. This stuff can surprize you how well it shoots for the price in a good rifle. The important thing is you're getting trigger time with it at the range.

P.S. - if you are really tight on $$ right now PM me and I'll send you a loaner 3-9 scope and Lupy standard rings and bases to get you going. Just take-off stuff from other rifles sitting around needing something to do.

 

[Beethoven]

You'll need to find an accurate inch-pound torque wrench and torque the front and back action screws to about 50 inch pounds, not 65 with the stock screws. The middle one must remain loose; I recommend blue loc titing it, snug it so it holds the trigger guard securely but does not really exert any force on the action, and let the loc tite set up overnight. Have a local smith do it for you if you don't have access to the wrench or comfort in doing it. This needs done - Basic Setup 101 for the Remmy in the HS Precision stock.

Really?

That's the first I've heard of going to 50 vs. 65 in-lbs.

Why 50?

P.S. - if you are really tight on $$ right now PM me and I'll send you a loaner 3-9 scope and Lupy standard rings and bases to get you going. Just take-off stuff from other rifles sitting around needing something to do.

Wow.

THAT is a generous offer!!

 

[NineHotel]

You can't reliably get 65 with stock screws is one issue; another is 65 is an awful lot of pressure, and testing by quite a few folks like you and I confirm that 50 is plenty. Besides if your torque wrench is not calibrated for that range it is easy to over-torque and break the screws or bottom metal.

 

[mmike87]

Yes, they are all fixed power; 10, 16 and 20x.

Fixed 10x seems high?

Heck, I'm young and I have a hard time imagining less magnification than my 16x at 100 yards!

I could not fathom using a 10x at ranges greater than 150 yards or so.....

I hear what your saying ... but I don't want to limit myself. Scope are expensive and I'd rather get a variable with a broad power range so I can start my shooting at 100 yards and work my way out. I'd rather have magnification that I don't need than have some I can't don't want and can't get rid of.

I can shoot a decent group with my Aimpoint unmagnified at 100 yards with my AR. I'd like to eventually achieve a much higher level of precision with this rifle - starting at 100 and working my way out from there.

 

[mmike87]

Mike - check over on snipershide.com and do a search on "group buy bipod" - there was a Harris group buy going on over there.

You want the 9-13" notched leg swivel version BTW. The 6-9" swivel is a tad short for field work, and at 9" the 9-13 works well on the bench yet still in the field.

I have a SS in 10 power. I also bought, mounted up, and sighted in a 16x for a friend. You want the 10X; most everyone that sees it and the other powers (16 and 20) side-by-side agree. The 10X is very bright, clear and sharp; the 16 and 20 seem to give up some in all 3 areas, while still rugged and servicable. It is believed the issue is the design was originally for 10x, so when you cram 16 and 20 into the same tube compromises have to be made. The rear focus one is just fine if you'd rather not pop the extra $100 for the side focus. The SS is a great scope to start with and one you might keep. Best thing going for the $$ if you don't mind the size (big knobs and all) and worth 90% of what you paid for it if you decide to upgrade to a different scope in the future. Try that with any other brand than a Leupold or Nightforce or USO.

Also the SS 10X will not require a sloped base to get to 1k yards, so again being budget-minded you can start out with even Wal Mart lupy Rifleman bases or good old Weaver bases to get your rig up and going with the SS scope.

Good luck with the new stick! You'll need to find an accurate inch-pound torque wrench and torque the front and back action screws to about 50 inch pounds, not 65 with the stock screws. The middle one must remain loose; I recommend blue loc titing it, snug it so it holds the trigger guard securely but does not really exert any force on the action, and let the loc tite set up overnight. Have a local smith do it for you if you don't have access to the wrench or comfort in doing it. This needs done - Basic Setup 101 for the Remmy in the HS Precision stock.

Nothing really wrong with $11.36 a box Wal Mart Rem or Win 165 gr hunting ammo to get you started at the range. This stuff can surprize you how well it shoots for the price in a good rifle. The important thing is you're getting trigger time with it at the range.

P.S. - if you are really tight on $$ right now PM me and I'll send you a loaner 3-9 scope and Lupy standard rings and bases to get you going. Just take-off stuff from other rifles sitting around needing something to do.

Thanks for the offer and all the advice. I've got the cash for the scope .. so that's not a problem. I am cautious because there isn't anywhere around here that carries nice scopes and buying anything that cost $700 sigt unseen is a tad scary.

I am going to find an inch-pound torque wrench. I have already disassembled the gun and adjusted the trigger to my liking, understanding that once I shoot it I may want to adjust it more. It was pretty heavy out of box.

I think I really do want a variable scope, however. I'd really like to have a 3 or 4x for closer in work. I am a LONG WAY from making 1000 yards shots (emphasis on LONG) and I am far overbuying for my abilities, but when I miss the target I want it to be me and not my equipment!

Considering:

Burris Black Diamond
http://www.riflescopes.com/products/200954/burris_4-16x50_black_diamond_30mm_rifle_scope.htm

Zeiss Conquest
http://www.riflescopes.com/products/5214909920/zeiss_4.5-14x50_conquest_rifle_scope.htm

Leupold VXIII
http://www.riflescopes.com/products/LEU55132/leupold_4.5-14x50_vx-iii_30mm_riflescope.htm

My range only has 300 yards max ... so I won't be doing anything longer than that for a while.

 

[mmike87]

In the interest of full disclosure, I started another thread the other day dealing with optics once I found the gun. Seeing that this thread is digressing into optics now, I thought I post a URL to the other thread.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=165649