Bolt action vs. AR - accuracy and economy questions

[Wedge]

Went to a gun store today to see what they had in .223 bolt actions. This particular store (great service, very nice guys) specializes in semi-auto rifles and specifically in AK and AR platforms.

As I was talking to the guys, they confirmed what I had suspected; that a .223 bolt action rifle and glass was going to set me back abouy $1000 for anything entry level and that I was basically looking at getting into a Savage for that price range. They had some Bushmaster ARs for about $940 and said that for the money shooting at 100-300 yards the Bushmaster would be just as accurate as the bolt action using the "iron" sights.

Question: Is this a true statement? I have wanted an AR for a long time and the price is about the same as the bolt action + scope. I don't know which platform would be better for me though I have shot .22LR in bolt, lever and semi-auto and enjoy each one.

I have one MAJOR problem though. My wife HATES (and I mean HATES) EBRs. I could have an M1 Garand, M1A, Mini-14, Mini-30, SKS, etc. but an EBR is just too "military" in her words. Heck I have a couple of 12 gauges loaded with slugs or buckshot under the bed and she has no problem with that, have a .45 Colt and a Glock 17, no problem and plan on getting a bunch of "Russian Junk" as she calls it but the AR is out of the question.

I may not have been married as long as many of the folks here, but I have learned (even when we were still dating) that to push an issue is not the right way. I bring it up every couple of months and she says no way and I don't bother again. So either she needs to not mind me getting one or I need to just not fight it, have it be my sacrificial lamb and get the other firearms on my list.

Anyways, is the base Bushmaster with "iron" sights equivalent accuracy wise to say a .223 Savage bolt action topped with something like a Zeiss MC Conquest Scope 3-9x 40mm Z-Plex Reticle Silver ($499 at midway, I know Zeiss makes EXCELLENT optics so I chose this one as a representative) or will the bolt action be superior in every way.

Thanks!

 

[bcochran]

Mixing apples and oranges

You are mixing apples and oranges.

Accuracy: The military M16 has an acceptance standard of 3 inches at 100 yards with iron sights. Is that the level of accuracy that you want with iron sights, yes or no. If you are considering a bolt action .223, ask the factory what the anticipated accuarcy is with iron sights.

At this point, assuming that you are using a shooting position other than a wobbly and crummy rest on a bench donated to the range, you have your base iron sight accuracy contemplated.

The "economy" shibboleth.

Quality optics, quality ammo and quality cleaning equipment are the same prices whether you chose a cheap firearm or what you may deem an expensive firearm.

For purposes of discussion, assume that the other difference is the difference in price of the firearm. For purposes of discussion only, assume that you will shoot the firearm 10,000 times before you wear it out. So do the calculation. 100 cents is one dollar. 1000 cents is ten dollars. 10000 cents is one hundred dollars. So, if the difference in price of the firearm is one hundred dollars, then it costs you one cent more per round for the expensive firearm. If the difference in price is three hundred dollars, then the cost is an extra 3 cents a round.

Some comments on optics. Flat statements - meaning don't argue, just read. A scope, set on low power, has the ability to draw light. This means that with a quality low power, you can see into shadows of trees at high noon, see in that 10 minute period of sundown and sun up with iron sights cannot be used. You can use a low power in low light and with just starlight. A quality low power scope may be regarded as better than the human eye. If you have an eye sight situation where you cannot see the black of a target at 300 yards, a scope will do it. The iron sights on an AR15 are offset from the bore axis. In layman's terms, not only can I not see the iron sights in low light or darkness, I cannot accurately shoot by looking over the handle of the rifle. In layman's terms, take an AR15 out at night and shoot at a target. Do so also with your Garand and you will understand that the AR iron sights are useless.

 

[Wedge]

All shooting will be done from a bench. The benches in question are very solid (though I have not used them as I am primarily a pistol shooter) - okay they look very solid and I have not heard other shooters complain about them.

100-300 yard ranges are available to shoot at.

It sounds as though at any distance the 500 dollar bolt with the 500 dollar scope would have better accuracy than the 1000 dollar AR with iron sights.

Hard to compare iron sights to iron sights as most bolt action manufacturers do not supply their rifles with iron sights.

I guess the economy question is a bit loaded. Maybe I should have said value? Or just left that out. I already know that cost of ammunition will be more than either gun. I have had my latest 9mm for only 6 months and have already spent nearly half of what the gun costs in ammo.

Any AR I buy will not have a scope mounted to it, so I would consider the gun prices to be the same.

Maybe economy should refer to which gun will be more accurate out of the box and which will require $$$ to improve upon? If I buy a $500 gun and need $300 of smith work then I should have just started with a better gun.

I guess accuracy would be of higher concern and the question is which platform is better for that purpose? Sounds to me as though the bolt action is. Second question is, if they are equivalent in accuracy what to do about the wife factor...

 

[DogBonz]

Wedge

I agree, you are talking apples and oranges. I’d say that a good AR with a 20” or 24” barrel will be sub-MOA at 100 yds. But a stock AR with peep sights VS a savage bolt action with a nice scope is not a realistic comparison. If you’re talking about a Bush Master Varminteer, with equal glass, then yes, that AR will be more accurate than the bolt gun.

The AR is an inherently accurate platform, but to beat a well glassed bolt gun, it will need a little help, especially in the trigger. I love my AR’s, but the stock GI trigger has to go, and on mine was quickly ripped out and replaced.

As for the wife... you're on your own...he hehe he

 

[quatin]

Why not find out for yourself? Red's Indoor Range South (Right next to 183 & 360) rents out an ar-15 (I think 20''). Red's Indoor Range North (Up I-35 in Pflugerville) rents out a 16'' ar-15. I have a savage .223 and I can send you pics of how mine groups to compare.

 

[Wedge]

Thanks guys. I knew that the two platforms were quite different...it always seems like I compare two radically different things when trying to make a decision.

It would appear that for me the best bet would be the scoped bolt gun in the $1000 combined range.

An AR would be nice, but with only shooting at targets seems that the semi-auto part is wasted...for home defense I am already well prepared (though without any rifle at the moment).

I think that the AR is the final line in the sand for my wife. Her anti to neutral progression has gone as follows:

-Guns are evil
-Go camping and borrow a .22LR she has fun
-Okay you started to hunt, but keep the gun at your Grandparents
-Uncle gives me hunting gun
-Turkey season rolls around and I buy my own gun for that and keep it at home
-Then I keep both guns at home
-Then I buy a handgun, but no semi-auto they are evil - a Ruger Blackhawk in .45ACP/.45Colt is fine though since it is for target & hunting
-She gets me a whole reloading set up for Christmas
-Then I buy a semi-auto 3 years later, 9mm for target and carry
-Now looking to buy a rifle...

My best bet will be to just let it play out. Either it will come or it won't. In the mean time the AR will be my sacrificial lamb that I always say, "well I guess I won't get the AR, this will do instead". Perception and appearance are a big deal to her (like many an anti) though she recognizes the utility and is happy that we have a few in the house. But an M1A or M1 to her isn't as 'evil' as an EBR. Heck, I could buy a .458 Win Mag and she wouldn't bat an eye (except at the price).

She has respected me and supported me this long, I will do the same and not push the issue. From a target shooting standpoint I also don't have much ground to stand on given the superior accuracy of the bolt gun at the ranges and price in question.

 

[Wedge]

Why not find out for yourself? Red's Indoor Range South (Right next to 183 & 360) rents out an ar-15 (I think 20''). Red's Indoor Range North (Up I-35 in Pflugerville) rents out a 16'' ar-15. I have a savage .223 and I can send you pics of how mine groups to compare.

quatin, thanks for the tip. I generally go to Eagle Peak and they also rent out an AR-15, though I know where both Red's are and have gone to the one in Pflugerville on occasion.

I am interested in how your Savage .223 groups. You shoot mostly off a bench?

 

[Slamfire]

A Stock "match" grade AR 15 will shoot very well indeed. A CMP Highpower rules compliant AR will have a free floating barrel, two stage trigger, match irons, match barrel. From five feet away it looks like a service rifle. These rifles are about $1200.00. A good number of times I have shot 10 rounds prone in 70 seconds from a standing position, with a reload, in a seven inch circle at three hundred yards. My best was an 8 X clean at that distance. Eight of the shots were within three inches, all within seven inches. Don't know what a stock AR will do, probably not that good. But new shooters with their HBARS will keep it in the black. That's fine. That's better than 99% of the population can do.

Think you can do better with a scoped rifle? Probably, but it will take practice. For what you find out is that the rifle is not the limiting factor, its the shooter. And between shooters of equal ability, equipment does make a difference; the better you can see the better you can control your shots. But you gotta get good before you can start making realistic claims about one platform versus another.

 

[quatin]

I shoot mostly bench at 100 yards. I'll try to find targets at home and if not I'm going to the range this weekend and I'll bring a target home to take pictures of. My results so far is I can keep 5 shots on a quarter pretty consistently (I used to go to the Manor range where the bullseye is the size of a quarter). Savage recommends 69gr BTHP for best results and I can't find that locally. I've been using Black Hills 55gr for my results.

 

[Wedge]

Thanks quatin. That is the sort of accuracy I am looking for. A quarter is 1" in diameter (just measured one) so that would be 1 MOA. What sort of glass do you use?

I am set up to reload so other than dies and components I could easily make some 69gr rounds up.

Thanks for the input...my wife thanks you too...

 

[dm1333]

Why not start showing her pictures of people competing in high power matches with AR type guns? Maybe she just doesn't understand that the semi automatic match rifles are seriously good sporting rifles.

 

[das028]

First of all grow some cojones, or divorce that wife of yours









Just playing buddy


IMO, buy the bolt gun. It will serve you better for you intended use.

 

[quatin]

I have a bushnell banner 6x18x50. Also I should mention that I messed with the action screws without a torque wrench (which someone told me is a problem). My 5 shot groups commonly goes 3 shots together and 2 shots together or 4 shots together and a flyer (which someone told me could be a result of unbalanced action screws or something like that). I can almost get 1 hole groups if it wasn't for that. Or maybe I'm nuts and can't see so well at 100 yards..I'll try and get a pic of some groupings this weekend for definate results.

 

[Wedge]

I think the bolt will win out given the intended purpose. Thanks for the info quatin it sounds like a very capable gun, it certainly is serving you well.

As far as my wife, I think we've made pretty good progess over the last 7 years...wait...8 years. I think the trick would be getting her to shoot an AR, I think that the pistol grip and collapsable/adjustable stock would make it very easy to have a gun that fit her well and is comfortable to shoot. The key is not to push the issue since it isn't that important.

The fact that she doesn't mind, heck almost likes, shooting the Glock and won't even touch the single action still has me confused.

 

[das028]

Wedge,

Dont worry about it. She'll come around sooner or later. Like you said the trick is to get her to shoot one

 

[ArmedBear]

Here's what you need:

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=5568&title=AR-15+WALNUT+STOCK+&+GRIP

That said you can get better accuracy per dollar from a bolt-action rifle than a semiauto, no matter what caliber, no matter what. Depends what you want it for.

 

[earplug]

Chasing Brass

If you reload, chasing brass from a AR can be a hassle.
Some brass catchers work better then others.
Having some sized, trimmed brass tossed 10-15 feet away can get old.

 

[Wedge]

Fortunately, the range i frequent has brass catchers built into every bench. 1) It catches the brass and 2) keeps you from getting hit by brass from your neighbor. Workds pretty well on the pistol range.

The bolt looks to be the clear winner. Thank you for everyones comments!

Quatin, looking forward to seeing some groups. Let me know if you ever come up to Eagle Peak.

 

[de]

As far as accuracy in both rifles, the Bushmaster has a match barrel and chamber. Given the same sighting equipment on both rifles whether it be optic or iron, they should be very close with the edge going to the Bushmaster.
As for the wife. I would start designating certain items of HER PROPERTY (especially hobby related) that would not be allowed to be kept at house. Thereby causing this situation to be more even and fair. It sounds like your not living in a democracy, but a dictatorship instead. JM2CW

P.S. You can tell her what I said, just now where I live.

 

[Wedge]

de. That sounds like a great idea. Wonder if the dog will mind sharing his crate? HA!

I think a Coach diaper bag (we're entertaining the idea of having kids in the next 18 months) will work better. If only Coach made an AR then I wouldn't have a problem.

She likes the idea of the C&R guns since cleaning the cosmoline will keep me out of trouble...

 

[Threeband]

It sounds like your wife has made great progress in overcoming her irrational prejudices, and she probably deserves a lot of congratulation for that. You've probably done something right yourself.

So if she's not quite ready for an evil AR, why not bring home... an AK!

 

[Wedge]

Threeband, she's really awesome! Thanks. Maybe someday, maybe not, I'll see how that plays out in the future. From my intended purpose the bolt gun sounds like the better choice anyways.

 

[BLACK-N-TAN]

buy or build the AR, you will not be dissapointed....My bushmaster out performs me everytime I take it out with a $200 VX-1 scope. I can peg the 500 meter gong with all 20 rounds without my glasses on & Im damn near blind! I was really contemplating the same thing you are (less the wife situation) and ended up with the AR. Ive had it since September and still pull it out of the safe, drop the legs on the bipod and set it on the table while Im watching TV and admire away. Bolt guns are great, I love my Savage 10FP in .308, but the AR is a staple that every shooter should have.

But buying a new gun is great regardless.....enjoy your new rifle!

 

[ForeverArmed]

Accuracy: The military M16 has an acceptance standard of 3 inches at 100 yards with iron sights.

Just curious: Don't they test their rifles from a machine rest so that the kind of sights (iron or glass) wouldn't make a difference anyway? Of course sights can be defective, but if you're testing a rifle's inherent accuracy, I don't see how the sights come into play at all.

 

[rangerruck]

you should be able to get a savage long range or 10 type,with some nice glass, for about 700 bucks, and it will be moa all day long.