Border Check point question.

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Please don't lock this thread... this is good info for all!

The poor female BPA in that video, rather than letting the jerk intimidate her, should have pulled the guy into secondary, taken his car apart and then handed him a screwdriver to reassemble it.
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I don't think the guy handled it nicely, but he is well within his right. Wishing that upon someone exercising their rights scares me. More often than not, it's the guy/gal behind the badge giving the fellow citizen a hard time.:barf:

Can we please keep a discussion going without getting personal? I'd appreciate it.
 
From my experiences, saying no to searches has always worked. Even with intimidation and threats, it's always worked. (very similar to the Busted video, actually, it's scary)

However, just like the video said, the definition of probable cause is very broad... and even though I consider myself very informed of the law, I am still unsure of what is considered probable cause.

Heck, even cops are often unsure of what constitutes PC. That's why we have lawsuits. -- I think if we dropped immunity and start using criminal punishments on police that go too far, that'll stop the ones that get "too eager."
 
"Can we please keep a discussion going without getting personal? I'd appreciate it."

I did not realize that was you in the video, and if the above-quoted statement was directed at my post, it was not my intent to get personal. The BPA in the video was just trying to do her job, and she got buffaloed by a driver intentionally giving her a hard time. She would have been well within her rights to detain the driver to continue her investigation to its conclusion. Yes, the driver is within his rights to be nonresponsive, but that doesn't mean he is going to be on his way as promptly as otherwise could be accomplished. Questioning authority is one thing. Being a jerk is another level.
 
No, the quote wasn't towards you, Nate, and I wasn't in any video... I just posted a story on what happened to me at a checkpoint south of Marathon, TX (close to Big Bend National Park).

She would have been well within her rights to detain the driver to continue her investigation to its conclusion.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that is true. What reasonable cause does she have to believe the gentleman may have been involved in a violation of law? If she has none, then she can't detain, and he's free to go.
 
"Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that is true. What reasonable cause does she have to believe the gentleman may have been involved in a violation of law? If she has none, then she can't detain, and he's free to go."

As I stated previously, border checkpoints operate under different rules than typical domestic law enforcement.

From the CBP website:

CBP Authority to Search

(06/12/2008)A U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officer’s border search authority is derived from federal statutes and regulations, including 19 C.F.R. 162.6, which states that, “All persons, baggage and merchandise arriving in the Customs territory of the United States from places outside thereof are liable to inspection by a CBP officer.” Unless exempt by diplomatic status, all persons entering the United States, including U.S. citizens, are subject to examination and search by CBP officers.

Reasonable suspicion/probable cause not are not a criterion in border searches "http://vlex.com/vid/19650471"] 19 CFR 162.6 - Search of persons, baggage, and merchandise.

TITLE 19 - CUSTOMS DUTIES

CHAPTER I - BUREAU OF CUSTOMS AND BORDER PROTECTION, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY; DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY

PART 162 - INSPECTION, SEARCH, AND SEIZURE

subpart a - INSPECTION, EXAMINATION, AND SEARCH

162.6 - Search of persons, baggage, and merchandise.



All persons, baggage, and merchandise arriving in the Customs territory of the United States from places outside thereof are liable to inspection and search by a Customs officer. Port directors and special agents in charge are authorized to cause inspection, examination, and search to be made under section 467, Tariff Act of 1930, as amended (19 U.S.C. 1467), of persons, baggage, or merchandise, even though such persons, baggage, or merchandise were inspected, examined, searched, or taken on board the vessel at another port or place in the United States or the Virgin Islands, if such action is deemed necessary or appropriate.
 
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(06/12/2008)A U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officer’s border search authority is derived from federal statutes and regulations, including 19 C.F.R. 162.6, which states that, “All persons, baggage and merchandise arriving in the Customs territory of the United States from places outside thereof are liable to inspection by a CBP officer.” Unless exempt by diplomatic status, all persons entering the United States, including U.S. citizens, are subject to examination and search by CBP officers.
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We aren't at the border. This is 50 miles away, and sometimes even 100+ miles inland. She can't detain or search for any reason.
 
Mike Franklin

Treo, you can't afford to not know your Rights. It would be a shame if your Lawyer told you to take a plea bargain because you broke the law while thinking you were right
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My point is that ,as you said, there's just too many fine points for someone W/out a law degree to know them all.

To take a lesson from C.O.P.S every week the show people who know they have dope in the car consent to a search. I don't know the ins & outs (and even if I did I'm NOT going to argue the point W/ one of your compadres on the side of a road) but I know enough of the basics to ask for a lawyer and shut up.

Again I'm not a criminal so it's not like I have cause to use this every day, but even as a law abiding citizen I've had Co. State Police look me right in the eye and tell me that I was required to inform them I was armed as soon as they contacted me. I'm not I did nothing wrong and found myself on the wrong side of a cop on the side of the road I had sense not to push the issue and things worked out.
But that's the kind of thing these rights are for to level the playing field
 
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You can carry a loaded, accessible handgun in your car without a CHL in Texas as of September of 2006. The law now defines leaving your driveway in Texas to go to the store as traveling. And in North Tx, I travel between two counties just in my commute to work!

However, if you are a convicted felon, member of a street gang, or in a police stop other than a Class C Mis. (I.E. ticket), THEN you will problems.
 
"We aren't at the border. This is 50 miles away, and sometimes even 100+ miles inland. She can't detain or search for any reason."

I respectfully disagree. Border checkpoints can be far removed inland. The Falfurrias Texas checkpoint is 90 miles from the MX border. There are others similarly situated, I am sure. The same concept allows Coast Guard and Customs authority miles offshore, before the actual border is crossed.
 
I respectfully disagree. Border checkpoints can be far removed inland. The Falfurrias Texas checkpoint is 90 miles from the MX border. There are others similarly situated, I am sure. The same concept allows Coast Guard and Customs authority miles offshore, before the actual border is crossed.
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That may be, but I'm under the impression that once you're in the United States, you have rights. No consent = No search. (unless PC, etc.)

It worked for me at a checkpoint and obviously worked for the guy in the video.

At the border, you're at the mercy of the one's with guns. Inside, you have rights.
 
"Reasonable suspicion/probable cause not are not a criterion in border searches"

How can the BP argue that everyone that passes a specific point on a particular road 50 to 100 miles from the border, aka a checkpoint, has just entered the country?

Under what authority (specifically) can they stop all vehicles at all this far from a border?

19 C.F.R. 162.6 is applicable to "persons, baggage and merchandise arriving in the Customs territory of the United States from places outside" the United States and doesn't seem to apply to a citizen that lawfully re-entered the country 2 years ago after a vacation in Cabo.
 
I read a post on the cowboy shooters' website about a guy who was on his way from his home in the Tucson area to a cowboy shoot. He got stopped at a BP checkpoint, and one of the agents there looked in the back of the guy's Chevy Suburban and noticed several long guns in cases. A female BP agent used a tape measure to measure the length of the guy's Winchester 97 shotgun, and claimed that the barrel was less than 18 inches. The guy tried to explain to her that she was not measuring the barrel correctly but was told "Shut up." He attempted to explain to the other agents at the scene that the proper way to measure the barrel length is to put a rod down the barrel until it hits the breach face, and then measure from the end of the rod to the point where the muzzle was. He was totally ignored, and left handcuffed in the back seat of the BP truck while the BP waited for an ATF agent to show up. After waiting for nearly 4 hours, the ATF guy arrives, puts a rod down the barrel, measures the rod, and tells the BP agents that the gun is legal. The BP lets the guy go, but of course by that time the guy has missed the shooting match, so turns around and heads home. The BP agents never apologize or say anything about being wrong.
 
I am not saying that the all the police are always right. If you are familiar with my other posts, you know that is not my position. However, there is no reason to be rude to people or force an unnecessary confrontation. I have a right to talk on my cell phone while driving in heavy traffic, but I don’t because it is crass and inconsiderate. You have the right to be rude, but not at everyone else’s expense. If you insist on being rude, I have the right to tell you to back off.

When the police talk, I listen. When they finish talking, I decide whether on not I need an attorney. There have been times I refused to get in their car. There have been times they put me in anyway. Those of you yelping about you rights are naive. When you are outnumbered and out gunned, you have no rights because the state always has more power and money than you do. If you want your blood to boil, read The Innocent Man by John Grisham. It would be unbelievable if it were not true.

Back to the Border Patrol, I have been through the checkpoint north of Laredo more times than I can remember. It’s irritating to wait in line when the temperature is over 100, but it is not worth forcing a confrontation, and it would be inconsiderate of the people behind me. The agents have always been polite and professional, but I have noticed some truculence lately in the younger ones. I blame those demanding we get tough with immigrants we have made illegal because we won’t let them come here legally. It was not this way in 1968 and it does not need to be this way now.
 
How can the BP argue that everyone that passes a specific point on a particular road 50 to 100 miles from the border, aka a checkpoint, has just entered the country?
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It's referred to as "the fuctional equivalant of the border." under title 19. Title 19 is just one of several authorities used by the BP.

And the attitude that you don't need to be examined simply because you are, "lilly white," is absurd. I've seen a ton of Mexican citizens that are red-headed, freckled and more white-looking than probably 50% of the people born in the USA.
 
Let's get one thing out of the way: In a perfect world, all LEOs would always know all about the laws they enforce and would always be polite and courteous as they did so.

This is not a perfect world. Odds are, however, that the LEO of whatever sort knows a lot more about what the law actually is than does the average citizen.

A direct quote from the Chief of the Marfa Sector of the Border Patrol when asked about rudeness and discourtesy: "They shouldn't be." And, then, "Human nature. Maybe the agent is having a bad day...Are they instructed to be polite, professional, courteous? Yes...If you run into agents that are not courteous and professional, let us know."

You should know that the Border Patrol is now additionally charged with anti-terror and anti-drug work as well as the original checking for citizenship. Expanded legal powers.

Checkpoints are located at chokepoints for travel. Very logical. No place to run to, for a Bad Guy. No place to readily make a U-turn and then turn off onto some side road or street.

One thing to remember at these checkpoints is that many of the people there are newbies, trainees. They're nervous and unsure. That tends to make them somewhat overzealous, hoping to please those who observe. But it's a lower-pressure way for them to break-in, to gain experience.

I've lived down here next to BBNP for 25 years. I go through the Cathedral Mountain checkpoint every time I go to Alpine. Maybe 25 times a year; even more, some years. I go to Ojinaga, Mexico, for shopping; maybe monthly.

I've seen officiousness and foolishness, but I've yet to be treated rudely.

I roll up, lights dimmed or off. Sun visor up. Window down. I try to speak first, with a grin and, "Hey, how's your day going?" Or, "Don't you just love having an outside job?" Invariably it throws them a bit off stride, and they commonly smile, MAYBE ask if I'm a citizen, and wave me on. If my truck is muddy, they might ask if I live in Terlingua, and grin at a, "Yeah , 25 years."

Last time I came through the Del Rio checkpoint (near Comstock), there were two BP guys standing there, just BSing. As I rolled up I could see that both were Latins. As I stopped, I heard the tail end of the conversation; it was in Spanish. So, me being me, I said, "No es verdad!" They both cracked up laughing, and without another word waved me on.

Generally, you get what you ask for.

Art
 
I was driving my son's old beater Chevy suburban with the back full of dog food. All kinds, Kibble & Bits, Gravy Train, you name it, over 500 pounds. The Border Patrol check guard with the dog stop me, looked in the window, his eyes got real big and he pulled the dog back. Told me "get that thing out a here". "OK adios ", I said.

I been in the SW almost 40 years and all they ask is are you a US citzen and wave me on. Never been asked about firearms and it's usually on the front seat. During hunting season (which is most of the year here) rifles visible and in camo same thing.
 
It's referred to as "the fuctional equivalant of the border." under title 19. Title 19 is just one of several authorities used by the BP.
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I'm still not accepting that the BP have any right to stop anyone because the "functional equivalent of the border" does not apply to some of these checkpoints.

This is what I found in a CRS Report for Congress titled Protecting Our Perimeter: “Border Searches” under the Fourth Amendment see page 10.

Functional Equivalent. Border searches may also be conducted within the interior of the United States. The border search exception extends to those searches conducted at the “functional equivalent” of the border. The “functional equivalent” of a border is generally the first practical detention point after a border crossing or the final port of entry.33 It is justified because in essence, it is no different than a search conducted at the border and occurs only because of the impossibility of requiring the subject searched to stop at the physical border. A search occurs at the border’s functional equivalent when: (1) a reasonable certainty exists that the person or thing crossed the border; (2) a reasonable certainty exists that there was no change in the object of the search since it crossed the border; and (3) the search was conducted as soon as practicable after the border crossing.34 Places such as international airports within the country and ports within the country’s territorial waters or stations at the intersection of two or more roads extending from the border exemplify such functional equivalents.35 In general, courts have given the “border” a geographically flexible reading because of the significant difficulties in detecting the increasingly mobile smuggler.
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Does anyone have any idea what right the BP has to conduct these roadblocks/checkpoints 50 to 100 miles from the border?
 
Going back to the original post: I don't know of any federal law which speaks to what gun one carries in one's car on an open highway. Given the location of BP checkpoints, no school or secured public building is involved. It's thus a state-law issue, only--and in Texas you're legal with rifle, shotgun or pistol.

After all, when Ol' Bucky's head is hanging over the tailgate, dripping blood on the paint, doesn't the world at large figure there just might be a gun in the truck? :D PETA might care, but the BP guys don't.
 
LEOs, that applies to the Feds and me too, ought to be polite and respectful. They, above all others, should know the Law.
A detained Citizen should be polite, respectful and know their rights.
The side of the Highway is not where a Citizen should learn the Law and their Rights and truthfully the LEOs don't really care what your opinion is about what they're doing to you or your car. If you think they did something wrong report'm, if you do something wrong We reserve the right to put you in jail.
It’s not my fault if another LEO is abusive to you or violates your Rights.
I don’t hold it against you if some other citizen try’s to give me a ration of crap.
 
I'm still not accepting that the BP have any right to stop anyone because the "functional equivalent of the border" does not apply to some of these checkpoints.
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You can refuse to accept it all you want, but it doesn't change reality.

US vs Martinez-Fuerte
 
JDoe, Destructo6 spoke truth.

Back some twenty years ago, before all this terrorism stuff, I was 172-ing around this area, sightseeing with a buddy. US Customs guys in a KingAir radioed me and asked a bunch of idiotic questions.

When I landed, a Border Patrol guy I knew was just getting ready to drive away from the Terlingua International Dirt Strip. He waited, and we visited a bit. I told him about the radio chatter with Customs.

"They don't have any authority to question you! Your flight didn't originate across the border! I have the authority, but they don't." He was ticked.

Rest assured: Any Border Patrol guy can question you as to citizenship, even in the middle of Kansas. There is zero legal requirement to be near a border.
 
Art, I can't believe the printed words that are coming from your mouth supporting these checkpoints.
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We DESPERATELY need these checkpoints...you may not notice up there where you live...but have you ever been to Laredo, Del Rio, McAllen, Langtry, Uvalde, Eagle Pass etc. etc., (any town even remotely near the border)...we have a problem with illegal immigration, drug smuggling, human smuggling and then some.

And yes...I have been there (all over south Texas, Arizona, Southern California)...but I don't remember ever going down towards Terlingua, there must not be much down there.
 
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