The Hoppe's #9 is removing the copper fouling, it's just a very, very slow process. The attached picture shows the dry swabs I've passed through the barrel after letting the Hoppe's soak for 30 minutes or more. They are laid out from right to left in the picture, and even after doing 14 cleaning cycles, I'm still seeing copper residue on the patches. I'm using a plated Tipton jag, so no copper should be coming from the jag . Like I noted in post #20, I have no idea of how this rifle was treated in the first 35 years of it life. Further, since the rifle has been in my family, it has never gone through an extensive effort to specifically remove copper fouling, just normal cleanings. So, even the best of the copper fouling cleaners might not have been a one-pass operation, but think I'll try a newer generation copper removing cleaner.
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Been shooting centerfire rifles for nigh on to 70 years; my round count was a lot lower back then in my first CF rifle, a model 92 Winchester, used for plinking and hunting. Copper wasn't a problem as I shot mostly handloads w/cast lead bullets back then. My round count has increased exponentially over the years, and for the most part evolved to jacketed bullets.
Different barrels foul differently and the degree of difficulty in removal of (
all) carbon and copper fouling from any barrel, IMO, depends largely on bore finish, how many rounds have been fired since it was last
cleaned, etc. To further complicate the matter, many solvents work better on one (copper) or the other (carbon) but not both. Furthermore,
clean means different things to different people.
The fact is, some barrels seem to shoot better with a bit of fouling than they do when squeaky clean. That is why many competitions allow for a couple of "sighter, or fouler" shots before starting a string for record. Every barrel is a study in it's own in that regard, IMO.
Lots of folks have found one or more solvents that do the job of copper and/or carbon fouling effectively. What works great for one shooter, and his/her shooting/cleaning habits, in one or more barrels, might not be the best for cleaning a rifle that has been shot for years without a thorough "squeaky cleaning", as baked on powder becomes hard carbon and usually results in much more difficulty in removal.
Will a deep clean benefit every barrel? I doubt it, it may or may not help some barrels. Only one way to find out. I believe there is such a thing as beneficial fouling that helps some barrels, but not so much in other barrels.
As for the various solvents, I too used Hopes 9 for many years and believed my barrels were clean, based on color of the patch and Hopes today is not the same old Hopes we grew up with, again, just my opinion. (Just for the record, I have always cleaned my rifle barrels after every outing, whether I fired one round hunting, or a couple hundred rounds+ in a match. (I believe that higher round counts between cleaning tends to bake powder fouling into (hard) carbon fouling, which is much harder to remove.)
Even before affordable bore scopes, I began to realize that many, if not most, solvents were more effective on either powder (carbon) or copper, but not usually both. Tactical advantage is the best dual purpose solvent I have found to date. There are most likely others, as well, I just stopped looking.
Hopes is one of the milder solvents and I found that even after I got white patches, dry patched and lightly oiled the barrel, the dry patch I always ran through barrel before next outing would come out grey or even a slight blue color, even with the old Hopes.
When I was shooting 100-300 rounds a week, I discovered Hopes Benchrest was a little more aggressive and reduced the amount of grey dry patch prior to next session, so used that for years, supplementing that with an occasional deep cleaning with Sweats (following instructions on the bottle!) and even a rare abrasive application of JB paste. This kept my match barrels (and me) happy for an average of 7500 rounds of mild 30-06 rounds/barrel.
Had to give up competition shooting BBS (before bore scopes) and shooting habits changed drastically to far fewer rounds/outing (1 hunting to a rare range session of up to 50 rounds) ABS. My barrels for the most part are no longer the super smooth match barrels, but factory barrels with all their warts.
As such, they are much more difficult to remove fouling from than the finer finished barrels, but I still clean after every outing and doubt seriously that I'll wear out another barrel.
After trying a dozen or more solvents in several
factory barrels and comparing results with the borescope, I settled on Tactical Advantage and the procedure described in post #10 above to fit my use in my barrels.
Note the faint carbon traces in pictures after TA procedure, I am experimenting with "beneficial fouling" in this particular barrel, as it seems to take 3-5 rounds to settle down after a thorough cleaning but the jury's still out on that. If I don't see all that much difference, I may go back to "squeaky" clean, which may require an abrasive or another treatment or two of TA to get any remaining carbon. I prefer the milder TA, but a judicial application of JB will get the hard baked carbon and I also plan to give Flitz a try for comparison.
ETA:
@Sniper66 Thanks for the heads up on the trap patch/guide. That looks like it would save a lot of mess w/bolt guns. Have one on order.
https://www.amazon.com/Tipton-777999-Rapid-Deluxe-Guide/dp/B0035LU0O2
Regards,
hps