BP pistols and deer

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redneck2

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This past season I had a situation where a quick follow up would have gotten me two deer instead of one. Range was less than 40 yards, probably 30-35.

Anybody ever actually use a BP pistol for deer?? Guess I'm thinking it would take at least a .44.

TIA
 
I can't tell if you're discussing one as an alternative or backup to a muzzle loader. If so, you should be aware that multi-shot guns are usually not allowed during BP season even if the guns are BP guns.

That said, here's a discussion of using cap & ball revolvers for deer hunting.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=157482
 
I think multiple shot BP pistols are allowed in IN, but I'll re-check.

I went over and read that thread. As typical, a lot of conjecture and wrangling, but only about 1 of 10 posts had something worthwhile. One thing I did see was about the Ruger Old Army. My local dealer has one NIB for $300.

Wondering if that would be viable assuming it passes regs. Maybe easier to carry than a Walker assuming it is powerful enough.
 
I'd try my .54 caliber Kentucky pistol at deer hunting, but only at close range (~25 yards or less).

jm
 
In my opinion, if you have a .44 or .45 caliber C&B Revolver like a Remington NMA Copy or one of the Colt Dragoon/Walker copies "60 army could too but less so" & the Ruger Old Army with barrel lengths of at least 7.5" for better sight radius & slight power advantage, & have become proficient with it, a Deer can be taken with these firearms at about 40 yards or less range but any farther & you may be pushing the capabilities a bit for a clean kill.
 
I once used my Ruger Old Army to take a large Whitetail doe.
I had just got to the top of my treestand, my. 50 T/C Hawkin was still on the ground.
Seated on the platform, my back against the tree, my pistol rested on my knees, range not more than 15 yards, one shot behind deers ear.
Zeke
 
In Minnesota, (the state where absolutely nothing is allowed), it is not legal to hunt deer with a cap and ball pistol even in the rifle season. Go figure.
 
I've never hunted deer with a cap and ball revolver but I do know something about the accuracy and power of them out to 40 yards and more.
I would not use the 1860 Colt or Colt Walker or Dragoons for deer hunting.
Why?
Because their sights are atrocious: just a notch in the hammer and a brass front sight that catches light and becomes an indistinct glowing orb in sunlight.
Such sights are not adjustable. Typically, these revolvers place their balls or bullets higher than the point of aim. Nor is it unusual to find one that shoots to the right or left of point of aim. Again, this can't easily be compensated for.
Hunting requires accuracy for proper shot placement. It's as simple as that. Accuracy is more important than power. Look at how many poachers have taken deer with .22 Long Rifle bullets; they depend upon accuracy, not power.
The Ruger Old Army, target-grade Remington 1858 and any others with adjustable sights would be best, to ensure accuracy.
Next-best would be the Remington with its fixed sights, since such sights can be altered to shoot to the point of aim.
Just yesterday I was out with my Uberti-made `58 Remington .44 caliber. At 20 yards, from a benchrest, it put six Lee 200 gr. conical bullets into a group 1-1/2 inches high and 3/4 inch wide.
This is the best group I've recorded with these particular bullets; generally I find round balls to be more accurate than conical bullets.
This would make a good, close-range deer load.
The load particulars are:

Six Lee bullets into 1-1/2 X 3/4-inch group at 20 yards
Uberti-made replica of Remington 1858, fixed sights, Ser. No. 419XXX
20 yards, benchrest.
Weather sunny, 40s and Sun 90 degrees to my left
Lee 200 gr. conical bullet (catalog no. 450-200-IR) cast of soft lead
Bullet lubricated with Gatofeo No. 1 lube (a mix of mutton tallow, canning paraffin and beeswax)
26.4 grs. Goex FFFG powder, thrown by spout on flask.
Remington No. 11 cap, pinched to cling to the nipple.
No wad between bullet and powder
Unknown velocity ( I didn't bring my chronograph) but muzzle velocity estimated at 800 feet per second.
Point of aim: 1-1/2 inches below center of group or, expressed another way, most bullets hit 1-1/2 inches above where I aimed.

This load would certainly kill a deer, if the bullet were accurately placed.

Some of you may wonder why I shot at 20 yards, instead of the more standard 25 yards. Well, the local gravel pit was a mudhole and 20 yards was the longest I could shoot without having to tramp through thick, gooey mud to change targets!
Of course, if my groups had been atrocious, I would have blamed the mud as well:
"It's the mud. It's clingy and it's sucking down the bullets and throwing them all over the place. Yep ... mud all right ... darn it." :D
 
It should work fine if you put them in the heart or brain, but brain shots should be avoided.
I agree with the above posters, the sights will be the only thing holding you back.
 
In Kentucky, you can hunt with a BP revolver during muzzel loader season. I hunt with a .50 cal hawken and carry a .44 Remington copy not for any follow up shots, but in case a downed deer tries to get back up on me when I approach. I always make sure to reload before I leave the stand, but you never know what might happen. It'll work good on close coyotes too.
 
In Illinois it's not legal to use C&B for deer because of the 500ft.lbs. minimum. They finally ammended the rules this year to allow small game with pistols (no caliber or length restricions) and they finally clarified that it is legal to hunt coyotes with your black rifle even with a Beta C mag in it!
 
I think there have been lots of deer killed with black powder pistols. I'm going to buy a 45 caliber flintlock Kentucky pistol specifically to use for shooting deer. I'm a good shot and will keep all of my shots within 40 yards.
 
Blackpowder pistols are VERY, VERY weak...even the 44 calibers.

I experimented with them a few years ago...and didn't like what I saw...very slow muzzle velocity (cant remember exactly but I think it was around 650 fps), not near enough penetration (gel) because the bullets ain't heavy enough (about 8 inches penetration)...and that was with a 44 caliber Walker pistol loaded to the max.

The 45 to 54 caliber single shot muzzleloading pistols may work better...I haven't played with those to see.
 
I am trying to figure out what kind of anemic powder you loaded a Walker with to get only 650 fps.

When I was using the pyrodex pellets that don't even ignite or burn all the way it was still going much faster than that.
 
It was Pyrodex...40 grains I think, may be wrong though...its been a while. I loaded whatever was max for the Walker, that I know for sure.

I only used round balls though...I still have the pistol, but have not fired it since.
 
A Walker should hold pretty close to 60 grains as a max load with no compression. And a round ball is nothing to sniffle about. They have been used with great success for a whole lot of years before a conical or modern bullet came along.

I have never used Pyrodex loose powder, just the pellets when I first started out. Maybe pyrodex can have negative effects like BP when it gets damp or packed wrong. Maybe you were using the wrong size of balls and they didn't form a good seal. Hard to tell. I just know, I don't think I can load my gun down far enough to get that slow. Even my CAS loads are faster than that, and they are around 18 grains with filler behind the round ball.

Ulitmately, with a Walker, Dragoon, Remington, or Ruger you should easily have enough velocity, even with a round ball, to take a whitetail within a reasonable range. I would however not choose the colts for their sights, and probably stick to adjutable sights. I plan to try for a deer this year with my Ruger. It has been a couple of years since I went for a deer, even during shotgun season, so I got lots of practicing to do this summer.
 
Ridgerunner665 said:
Blackpowder pistols are VERY, VERY weak...even the 44 calibers.

I experimented with them a few years ago...and didn't like what I saw...very slow muzzle velocity (cant remember exactly but I think it was around 650 fps), not near enough penetration (gel) because the bullets ain't heavy enough (about 8 inches penetration)...and that was with a 44 caliber Walker pistol loaded to the max.

The 45 to 54 caliber single shot muzzleloading pistols may work better...I haven't played with those to see.

Using just regular Goex FFFG Black Powder a Colt Walker revolver with a charge of 50-60gr. & a .457 142gr. ball can produce over 1150 fps. 417 ft. lbs..
My little Remington 1858 copy with the 5.5" barrel & 40gr. FFFG & a .457 142gr. ball will produce approximatly 850 fps. 228 ft. lbs. or with the .456 220gr. conical withn 30gr. FFFG will produce an average of 718 fps. 254 ft. lbs..

Now as far as a single shot in either .50 or .54 caliber I would agree because of the larger projectile would give it the edge over the .44 caliber revolvers in that respect.
 
I have been hunting with black powder firearms for over thirty years. I have taken three deer so far with black powder pistols. Two does and one buck.I use a ruger old army with adjustable sights and I never attempt a shot past twenty yards.The buck I shot was ten yards .The ball hit him in the lungs and he leaned up against a tree as the air was rushing out of his lungs . He was DRT.
 
I got 120lb spike at 50yds this last season with my ROA. Filled it to the rim, put ball on top and crammed the thing in. He went about 40 to 50yds down hill and expired in the branch.
 
I would not use the 1860 Colt or Colt Walker or Dragoons for deer hunting.
Why?
Because their sights are atrocious: just a notch in the hammer and a brass front sight that catches light and becomes an indistinct glowing orb in sunlight.
Such sights are not adjustable. Typically, these revolvers place their balls or bullets higher than the point of aim. Nor is it unusual to find one that shoots to the right or left of point of aim. Again, this can't easily be compensated for.
Hunting requires accuracy for proper shot placement. It's as simple as that. Accuracy is more important than power. Look at how many poachers have taken deer with .22 Long Rifle bullets; they depend upon accuracy, not power.
The Ruger Old Army, target-grade Remington 1858 and any others with adjustable sights would be best, to ensure accuracy.

The open top Colt sights can be adjusted for POI. The 2nd gen Colt Walker has a dovetail. The hammer notch can be filed. Work with the load and you can normally get them dialed in pretty close. Obviously the ROA or a Traget model 1858 would be better sight wise.
I have taken deer with a ROA back in the day. Always in heavy brush and short range, 25yds or less. At that range most .44 c&b revolvers are deadly accurate.
 
Texas law does not apply in all States.........contrary to what most Texans might think or prefer.

Florida for example, does permit the use of multi shot BP weapons...........it does not permit the use tho of smokeless powder in one.


State laws vary, and pronouncing that something is or is not permitted based solely on where one lives and is familiar with is a mistaken approach.

For example, I use dogs on deer...........something done nearly exclusively in the southern U.S...with minor exception......Suggesting that method was legal elsewhere would sure be a wrong message.
 
From the Indiana DNR regs:

The muzzleloading handgun must be single shot, .50 caliber or larger, loaded with bullets at least .44 caliber and have a barrel at least 12 inches long, measured from the base of the breech plug excluding tangs and other projections, to the end of the barrel including the muzzle crown.
 
Texas law does not apply in all States.........contrary to what most Texans might think or prefer.
1. You will note that I didn't say TX law applies in all states.
2. You will also note that I didn't even say that I think it in applies all states or that I would prefer it if it did.
3. You will note that, in fact, I didn't even state what TX law does and doesn't allow.
4. Finally, I'm not a Texan, I was born overseas.

What I actually said was that multi-shot BP guns are usually not allowed during muzzle-loading season.

Usually means 'MOST places' but it certainly does not mean 'ALL places'.

If you have information that indicates that most states actually DO allow cap & ball revolvers during BP season then that would mean my statement is in error. If you have such information then you should, by all means, post it to set the record straight.
 
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Blackpowder pistols are VERY, VERY weak...even the 44 calibers.

I experimented with them a few years ago...and didn't like what I saw...very slow muzzle velocity (cant remember exactly but I think it was around 650 fps), not near enough penetration (gel) because the bullets ain't heavy enough (about 8 inches penetration)...and that was with a 44 caliber Walker pistol loaded to the max.

Here's an interesting post you might want to read:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=4827893#post4827893

In case you don't get a chance, it is Mec's evaluation of conical vs. Buffalo Ball-ets in a Dragoon. At 20 yards his results were as follows:

193 gr Buffalo Ball-ets
40 gr FFFg Swiss
average 976 fps
402 fp energy

200 gr Lee
40 gr swiss
average 1043 fps
483 fp energy

And this was with a Dragoon loaded with only 40 grains. Walkers, maxed out hold, what, 60 grains?

He continues with the following results:

60 Army (Uberti)

180 Grain Bullet Dixie Mould velocity/extreme spread
28 Gr/Vol. Pyrodex P 821 50
28Gr/Vol Goex FFFg 649 81
200 Grain Lee Conical
28 Gr/Vol. Pyrodex P 967 46
35 Grains Goex FFFg 753 46

.454-.457 ball:
28 Grains Goex FFFg Second Generation Colt 822 55
28 Grains Goex FFFg Uberti 871 104
35 Grains Goex FFFg Second Generation Colt 855 37
35 Grains Swiss Uberti 1031 48
Same Load Different Day 1020 34
40 Grains Goex FFFg 992 34
40 grains Goex FFFg with Wonder Wad 942 30
40 Grains Swiss FFFg 1042 49
40 Grains Swiss FFFg with Wonder Wad 1055 80
The values are from volume measures calibrated for weight with Goex fffg. The actual weight with the denser swiss powder is several grains heavier. Grain per grain though, the swiss is still more energetic than the goex.

Also, a 40 grain charge is very hard on the loading lever and is a bit too much of a good thing.

Pyrodex P
22 Gr/Vol. Pyrodex P .457" 725 25
22 Gr/Vol. Pyrodex P .454" 712 27
28 Gr/Vol. Pyrodex P 841 54
*30 Gr/Vol. Pyrodex P .457 931 (lubed 1/8" wad) 21
30 Gr/Vol. Pyrodex P .457 904 (lubed double wad) 47
*30 Gr/Vol. Pyrodex P .457

Uberti Army made in 1980 899 77 Identical revolvers made
in 1980 and 2004

35Gr/Vol. Pyrodex P 1047 116
35 Gr/Vol Pyrodex P with Wonder Wad 1055 69
35 Gr/Vol. Pyrodex P different Day 1046 77

I would suggest you check the calibration on your chrono...
 
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