Breaking the MOA barrier

[azar]

It's seems in every thread I read, both here and elsewhere, people talk about shooting 0.25" groups, 0.5" groups, or, on a bad day, 0.75" groups. Maybe a lot of it is simple bravado. I am also aware that many that frequent these types of boards are benchrest shooters. I have seen photos of some of the targets and the sizes of the groups astound me. I only dream about shooting that good of groups. My best shooting with my reloads never seems to break 1 MOA at 100 yards. I am more than willing to admit that it could be the guy pulling the trigger. But maybe you could help me out?

If you can regularly and repeatably shoot groups less than 1 MOA please answer these questions for me:

1) Are you shooting with a stock rifle, straight from the factory with no modifications? If your rig is customized such as custom barrels, triggers, free-floats, beddings, etc, what have you had done?
2) What type of rest do you use? Range provided sandbags, your own nicer bags, bi-pod, Caldwell lead sled, or some higher-end rest?
3) How much work do you put into your handloads? Weigh every charge, every bullet, check for run-out on each round?
4) What is your bench technique like? When you let your barrel cool down, how cool is "cool"?
5) How often do you get to shoot and how much time do you spend at the range at a given time?

Now, a little bit about my gear and my goals...

Both guns I reload for are factory standard with no modifications or customizations:
1) CZ 550 American in 6.5x55 SE
2) Ruger M77 Mark II in 7mm Remington Magnum

I use a set of Caldwell "Deadshot" sand bag rests. I do my best to make my handloads as accurate as possible. I weigh every charge, and sometimes weigh each bullet. I have no tools to check for run-out, case neck thickness, etc. I try and let my barrel cool down usually about 3 minutes in between each shot. I only get to go shooting 1 to 2 times a month and spend around 2 hours at the range when I do get to go.

I have the Rock Chucker Supreme Master reloading kit, standard RCBS green box dies, a basic Lyman dial caliper, etc. No Redding, Forester, or Wilson dies. Nothing high-end, because it's too expensive. The reloads I make will be used for hunting, not benchrest shooting. I full-length resize and use typical hunting bullets (Interlocks, Core-Lokts, GameKings, etc).

Now, I know I don't need better than 1 MOA accuracy for bullets that will be used for hunting. I would like to get my rounds as accurate as possible and to get my bench technique as good as I can. I think it's mainly jealousy when I see so many good shooters around me getting amazing groups. Especially when I see people who have the exact same factory standard gear claiming to get 0.5" groups regularly. I don't mind being outshot by a benchrest shooter who has heavily modified ($$$) gear.

Am I expecting too much of standard reloading gear and factory stock guns? Is it more likely the shooter and the need for better technique? How much will basic mods to my guns help (free-float, glass bed, trigger work)?

Sorry for the long post...

 

[JDGray]

If you can regularly and repeatably shoot groups less than 1 MOA please answer these questions for me:

1) Are you shooting with a stock rifle, straight from the factory with no modifications? If your rig is customized such as custom barrels, triggers, free-floats, beddings, etc, what have you had done?
2) What type of rest do you use? Range provided sandbags, your own nicer bags, bi-pod, Caldwell lead sled, or some higher-end rest?
3) How much work do you put into your handloads? Weigh every charge, every bullet, check for run-out on each round?
4) What is your bench technique like? When you let your barrel cool down, how cool is "cool"?
5) How often do you get to shoot and how much time do you spend at the range at a given time?

1. Savage 10FP with Choate UV Stock, freefloated on bedding blocks, stock Accu trigger at 24ozs.
2. All shooting is off a Bipod, with a rear bag, mostly prone, but sometimes off a picnic table.
3. I weigh every charge, single stage press. I dont bother weighing cases and bullets, standard primers.
4. I shoot maybe 1 round every minute, barrels barely gets warm(heavy barrels)
5. I shoot every week, but will alternate AR15, with my Savage. I shoot between 20, and 40rds in a range visit, of either .308 or .223, but shoot at least 100 rounds of carefully aimed .22, usually shooting for 2 hours.

Both rifles shoot sub moa at 100yrds, I need work at 200. My scopes are not powerfull enough for precision target work at 200 or more, so I dont sweat it.

Good luck in your shooting!

 

[243winxb]

Accuracy

If you can regularly and repeatably shoot groups less than 1 MOA please answer these questions for me:

1) Are you shooting with a stock rifle, straight from the factory with no modifications? If your rig is customized such as custom barrels, triggers, free-floats, beddings, etc, what have you had done?
2) What type of rest do you use? Range provided sandbags, your own nicer bags, bi-pod, Caldwell lead sled, or some higher-end rest?
3) How much work do you put into your handloads? Weigh every charge, every bullet, check for run-out on each round?
4) What is your bench technique like? When you let your barrel cool down, how cool is "cool"?
5) How often do you get to shoot and how much time do you spend at the range at a given time?

1. Stock factory custom shop Rem. 40-x 36x scope 243win. 2. Front- Home made,Adj. rest/sand bag. Bought rabbit ears rear. 3. Full bench rest prep of Win. brass, neck turn, Bushing dies. No runout check. Never weight bullets.Weigh each charge. 4. Work gun into bags so it recoils the same each time. Sit up straight. Basic-do it exactly the same each time. Heat will not bother a good barrel. Some factory barrels will walk the group as they heat up. But cool is good for barrel life, if no time limit, 3 min. between shots. Or all 5 fast if conditions are good. 5. Back in the day, 3 times a week or more, but not just rifles.

Am I expecting too much of standard reloading gear and factory stock guns? Is it more likely the shooter and the need for better technique? How much will basic mods to my guns help (free-float, glass bed, trigger work)?

Its all in the barrel, no amount of bedding, trigger, floating can fix a bad barrel. In most cases the Zero/point of aim will not change from week to week, if floated/bedded/wood stock. The choice of caliber has a lot to do with accuracy, some are better than others. My test of a factory rife is shoot 4-5 shot groups @100yds. If the average is 1MOA, you have a super rifle. No fouling shots. Test firing many gun over the years i have run into only a handfull that would average under 1" Pre 1994 guns, the new stuff might be more accurate now a days?? Other factory stock rifles that have passed my test, Rem 600 mohawk carbines in 243 & 308. Rem 7600 in 270. Sako L578 243win. Rem 700 7mm mag. bedded and floated. Rem 40x 222rem. The worst shooters i remember are, Sorry to Say, Ruger #1's variminters 2 guns, 1 new, 1 used, both 22-250 & another 243win. a bolt action 270win super lite bbl. But in all fairness, some were fired with factory ammo or reloads that were not custom fitted to the guns. But this is also true of the guns that passed the 1MOA test. Always use wind flags.

 

[Walkalong]

Many who frequent here like accurate rifles, and are willing to pay for them. 1/4 and 1/2" groups don't come from mass produced factory barrels very often.

Some folks buy a match accuracy type rifle, (me) and some of these guys do their own work using top grade custom barrels.

I do have a factory heavy barreled Sako that will shoot 1/4" groups, but that is not your average factory rifle either.

My Bench gun will shoot zeros, if I let it, but it is a high priced custom gun shooting custom bullets.

people who have the exact same factory standard gear claiming to get 0.5" groups regularly

They crack me up too. Not that it can't happen, but I know how hard it is to shoot real 1/2 inch groups.

regularly = 3 shot "groups" every 20th try I guess.

Don't be so hard on yourself. Find a competitive shooter who can give you tips on shooting off rests/bags. Get a couple of tips on wind. You don't need a full set of wind flags, but knowing a bit about wind and paying attention to it will help a lot.

 

[GaryL]

Sometimes you get lucky. I decided to try some handloads in a Model 70 and was surprised by the results. I only had 3 rounds left from sighting in a different rifle (which required meticulous handloads to get it to 3" at 100 yds), was using commercial ammo to sight in the M70, and figured I'd see how the handloads compare. Sent one down, went downrange and marked, then sent the last 2 in quick succession. This is what I found:

 

[jim147]

If you can regularly and repeatably shoot groups less than 1 MOA please answer these questions for me:

1) Are you shooting with a stock rifle, straight from the factory with no modifications? If your rig is customized such as custom barrels, triggers, free-floats, beddings, etc, what have you had done?
2) What type of rest do you use? Range provided sandbags, your own nicer bags, bi-pod, Caldwell lead sled, or some higher-end rest?
3) How much work do you put into your handloads? Weigh every charge, every bullet, check for run-out on each round?
4) What is your bench technique like? When you let your barrel cool down, how cool is "cool"?
5) How often do you get to shoot and how much time do you spend at the range at a given time?

1) Factory and very old Rem 722 in .222.
2) I have a shooting table with front and rear bags.
3)My handloads are done with a thrown charge into trimmed and primer pocket cleaned cases with every tray compared before seating bullets. Bullets are whatever 50 grain sp I can get. I use standard Lee dies for this rifle.
4) I only let the barrel cool between five shot groups. I don't keep track of time. I may take notes, change targets or shoot a different rifle.
5)I get out once or twice a month. I might spend a half hour or half day. I used to shoot at least once a week shooting hundreds of rounds. This time was and still is divided between pistol and rifle.

This rifle is not common of my factory rifles. I have only shot two five shot groups over one inch. It was one of the shots in each group and I'm sure I was the problem.

My rifle that I have with me the most does not shot under one inch. But it has never ever let me down when I've needed it.

jim

 

[azar]

Thank you everyone for your feedback. Additional feedback is certainly welcome!

JDGray,

When you say your rifles shoot sub-MOA how well are we talking? 0.99 MOA? 0.75, 0.5, etc? And how regularly? Every target? 1 out of 2? 1 out of 4?

243winxb said:

Its all in the barrel, no amount of bedding, trigger, floating can fix a bad barrel. In most cases the point of aim will not change if floated/bedded/wood stock.

Okay, but how do you know if you have a bad barrel vs. a good barrel that isn't properly bedded? If I did pay a gunsmith to free-float, glass bed, a do some trigger work on both guns should I expect NO improvement? Or are you saying that it would potentially improve assuming the barrel is good, but If the barrel is no good, then I wasted my money?

Walkalong,

Thanks for the advice. I'm not unrealistic enough to expect my guns to achieve 1/4 MOA or even 1/2 MOA. Even if my rifles are capable of that I know that I'm not. At least not regularly. Maybe once or twice in a lifetime. Admittedly, I don't pay much attention to the wind and I have no wind flags to use. The range has simple hand made ones on both sides, but they are not something that I can see while looking through my scope. And it's too distracting to me to take my eyes back and forth. Learning to shoot in wind would probably help a lot.

Gary and Jim,

Thanks for your input as well. It sounds as if both of you have a rifle that is an "uncommonly good" shooter while other rifles you have give you more "normal" groups.

I think that ultimately I need to decide what my accuracy goal is, make sure it's reasonable and realistic, and work to achieve that with the guns I have. What are your opinions on a realistic goal for the caliber and brand of rifles I mentioned? Is 1 MOA the realistic target? 3/4 MOA?

Thanks again everyone.

 

[Redneck with a 40]

1) Are you shooting with a stock rifle, straight from the factory with no modifications? If your rig is customized such as custom barrels, triggers, free-floats, beddings, etc, what have you had done?
2) What type of rest do you use? Range provided sandbags, your own nicer bags, bi-pod, Caldwell lead sled, or some higher-end rest?
3) How much work do you put into your handloads? Weigh every charge, every bullet, check for run-out on each round?
4) What is your bench technique like? When you let your barrel cool down, how cool is "cool"?
5) How often do you get to shoot and how much time do you spend at the range at a given time?


1) My rifle is a Remington 700 SPS Tactical, 20" heavy barrel in .308. The rifle is factory stock, with a Nikon Pro-Staff 3-9x scope.
2) I'm using a cheap MTM front forend rest, I use a camping pad laying on the ground, I shoot on national forest service land, not a developed range. I consider my set-up to be a "field rest" position.
3) I make sure all of my cases are trimmed to spec, I deburr and chamfer, clean the primer pockets and get as much uniform COL as possible. I load my rounds at 2.800". I don't worry about weighing each bullet or case, I'm not that anal. I also neck size once my brass has been fired in my rifle.
4) Since I have the heavy barrel on my rifle, I just fire away, about 3 rounds every 30 seconds or so. I can put 40 rounds downrange and the barrel is just warm to the touch. Typically, I will shot two groups, then check my target, so for every two groups, the barrel has 5-10 minutes of cool down.
5) I go out every weekend, shoot 15-20 rounds, which equates to about 30 minutes shooting, factoring in all the walking time downrange.

I can very consistently shoot 1" 100 yard groups with my handloads, I have been getting about 1 in 5 groups at .75", ok by me. My best 200 yard group so far is 1.25", but typically, they are 2", again, ok by me. I'm still a novice at this whole thing, I find 200 yard shooting to be a challenge. I'm looking forward to improving my skill and moving to 300 yards, where the wind becomes a real factor. By the way, I'm loading SMK 168's on top of 44.5 grains of IMR 4064, its proven to be a good load.

 

[arizona98tj]

I just finished loading some rounds to take to the range on Monday.....so I'll see if I can answer your questions.

1) Are you shooting with a stock rifle.....

Yes, I am shooting a stock rifle, a Remington 788 .223, 24" barrel, with a (don't laugh) 4-12X40 Tasco scope. Blew the dust off of it when I got my AR-15 a while back. The 788 and the scope are 30+ years old. I did add a pair of sling swivels to it. It shoots .75" MOA with my AR-15 handloads (using mixed headstamp brass no less).


2) What type of rest do you use...

I have a pair of sand bags that I bought when I got the rifle....pretty cheap back then (I was in the Navy and couldn't afford all that much!).


3) How much work do you put into your handloads?

I weigh the powder charges if it is extruded powder but don't if it is ball. I do not weight the bullets or brass. I use a chronograph when ever I work up loads.


4) What is your bench technique like.......

I usually shoot a string of 5 shots and then let it cool down some. It never gets "cool" like it was when shooting the first string. Sometimes I put it aside and shoot something else....then return to it and it may have then gotten back to ambient temp.


5) How often do you get to shoot.....

About once every 2 or 3 weeks. I spend about a half day there....usually split amongst pistol, rifle, and shotgun shooting.

No....I am not anything close to a hard core bench rest shooter.

 

[BullfrogKen]

1) Are you shooting with a stock rifle, straight from the factory with no modifications? If your rig is customized such as custom barrels, triggers, free-floats, beddings, etc, what have you had done?

Stock Winchester M-70 HBV in .308 (Heavy Barrel Varmint). Came free floated on an H-S Precision stock, 26" stainless barrel. Leupold fixed 10X Varmint scope on a 15 MOA single piece base.

The only thing I had done to it was I sent it away to get the cryogenic treatment done on the barrel and action. It doesn't do too much for accuracy besides reduce the variation somewhat with the cold bore shot. What it really does is extend barrel life, heat seems to affect the barrel less, and it cleans very easily - takes about 4 patches.

2) What type of rest do you use? Range provided sandbags, your own nicer bags, bi-pod, Caldwell lead sled, or some higher-end rest?

Whatever is available. Usually just the bipod, but sometimes bags or even just my pack.

3) How much work do you put into your handloads? Weigh every charge, every bullet, check for run-out on each round?

Very little. I certainly don't weigh every charge, and I don't even check charges much, maybe one every 20 or 30. The biggest factor I saw that reduced the size of my groups was switching to Lee's Neck Sizing only dies. With the Factory Crimp die I don't even have to trim to consistent lengths.

4) What is your bench technique like? When you let your barrel cool down, how cool is "cool"?

Nope. I just shoot the gun for a while, take a break for a while, dial in the dope for a new distance, shoot for a while more, and so on. Probably shoot anywhere between 5 to 15 in a string.

5) How often do you get to shoot and how much time do you spend at the range at a given time?

I get out pretty often. I'll spend anywhere between an hour, all the way up to all day on the range.


The gun is basically a 1/2 a minute rifle. Its done 1/2 a minute with 110 gr V-max's, all the way up to 175 gr MatchKings. I've had the occasional 1/4" group. As long as it shoots under 1 MOA, I'm happy. That's good enough for groundhogs. I had it out at the 1,000 yard range this weekend and it held under 1 MOA out to 800 yards, and it shot 1/2 MOA most of the day.


Those just had a reputation for being really good rifles. I've not met anyone yet that had a M-70 HBV that couldn't get it to shoot under 1 MOA, and I know a number of people using them. They weren't produced for all that many years, and have been out of production for maybe 10 now. But they still come up for sale from time to time. The guys over at Sniper Country drool all over them as a great quality, entry level rifle for precise work.

What are your opinions on a realistic goal for the caliber and brand of rifles I mentioned? Is 1 MOA the realistic target? 3/4 MOA?

For medium game hunting? 1 1/2 MOA is just fine. You might be able to do better using Neck Sizing only dies, and using the Factory Crimp die. But your standard hunting rifle probably won't do too much better that 1 MOA, and it really doesn't need to. Sometimes you can get a gem that does, but its the exception, not the rule.

 

[Afy]

1. Stock SHR .300 WM, M70 .222 REM Mag, Rebarrelled F110, Aluminium beded .260 Rem, CZ 452 Suppressed.

2. Bipod only, Front and Rear Bags, Front Rest and rear bag.

3. Trim to min length, deburr, clean primer pockets, neck size only, neck turn if required. Weigh every charge, Match King or Scenars

4. Depends on how much I cleaned the barrell. I have found if I have done a very thorugh cleaning, the barrell likes about 10 shots through it, before it really settles down. I normally shoot very lesuirely with a string of about 5-10 shots and then let the barrel cool for about 10 -15 minutes.

5. These days I only get to shoot maybe twice a month, and average about 3 hours a trip.

My .260 I know is a 1/4 MOA gun... It does shoot sub MOA consistently, just so long as I am not fooling around, and the load isnt experimental.

 

[JDGray]

JDGray,

When you say your rifles shoot sub-MOA how well are we talking? 0.99 MOA? 0.75, 0.5, etc? And how regularly? Every target? 1 out of 2? 1 out of 4?

My Savage at 100yrds is scary accurate. It keeps Federal Gold Metal Match 168, under an inch. Working up handloads with 155gr SMKs and Varget, It threw a group it didnt like at 1.200" but the charge it liked was a consistant .580", which is the best it has shot. This gun will print sub moa 9 out of 10 targets


My RRA Predator Pursuit is another animal. Its best 100yrd group is .675" for 5 shots, but 1" being the avarage. Most of my shooting has been out at 200yrds, and it averages close to 2.5" My best being 1.750" Learning to shoot in the wind has been most challanging

 

[FredT]

Alright, so your rifle will not shoot a minute of angle. Doing a lot of the things mentioned above (not all of it) might make it shoot a 2 inch 10 shot group at 100 yards which is not bad for a hunting rifle. Two other cheap tricks I do which always helps is to fire lap if required for coppering and coating the bore with Tetra Gun bore conditioner. This stuff does work well on most guns applied to. Good luck with your quest for the accurate rifle. It can be both hair pulling and rewarding.

 

[243winxb]

Rifle Barrels

Okay, but how do you know if you have a bad barrel vs. a good barrel that isn't properly bedded? If I did pay a gunsmith to free-float, glass bed, a do some trigger work on both guns should I expect NO improvement? Or are you saying that it would potentially improve assuming the barrel is good, but If the barrel is no good, then I wasted my money?

The average guy goes thru the process of bedding, and floating. Trial and error to find out. Not sure what a benchrest gunsmith would do, maybe look with a bore scope, air gauge it, look at crown under magnification. Inspect the current bedding, if any,check how the action rides in the stock.Look at the inletting. But i dout he could tell the difference between a good/great 1" barrel to a bad/average 1 1/2" barrel by looking. What i am saying , in most cases with factory rifles, you will not notice any major improvement by bedding and floating. Some light barrel rifles that use a pressure point shoot best that way, not free floated. IF you have a bedding problem, accuracy may improve with what ever accuracy the barrel is capable of.

 

[NuJudge]

There are some loads which shoot very well in every rifle that will shoot at all. For .223 AR's, 26.5gr 748, a 52gr Sierra and a CCI regular primer in a LC or WW case. The AR I shoot this in will do well under 2" at 200 yards using Iron sights. The barrel is an Oly match 20", with a Service Rifle float tube.

I also have a .220 Swift that will shoot clover-leaf groups at 100 yards with Winchester factory ammo. The barrel was made by FN, the action by Zastava, glassed into a stock, with a long Fecker scope on top.

CDD

 

[BullfrogKen]

Instead if putting time and money into a hunting rifle to chase that elusive sub-MOA standard, you really ought to consider buying something made to do it.

I can understand the jealousy, but a hunting rifle just isn't made to the tighter tolerances and with the features a precision rifle needs. Plenty of the new Savages will shoot 1 MOA and better with little or no after factory work.

If you can get to 1 1/2 MOA with your hunting rifle, be happy with it and enjoy it for what it is. If you really want to chase that sub-MOA standard you can try it with what you've got, but I think you're just going to end up frustrated. Getting a good Savage that's built with tighter and consistent performance is going to make your life a lot easier.

 

[NCsmitty]

azar, I'm sure you know that if you leave your rifles box stock, you still have technique and ammo to work with to improve your groups.
You have two fine rifles, accurate enough to consistently take game. If you choose to alter them slightly, they will still be good hunting rifles, and may give you better groups than you get now.
I've mentioned this on other threads before, and personally, I'm a firm believer in floating the barrel completely back to the action. I spot bed my actions, not full bed.
I have never seen where a floated barrel would not shoot better than one with a pressure point. That's been my observation with Remington's and my personally built Mausers. Pressure points and light barrels will cause stringing as it heats up.
It's something that is easily done by yourself with a rasp or large round file, should you consider it.
IMO, 5 shots are a group, not 3 shots. 5 shots show the true potential of the rifle and load.

So consider the information that's been presented in this thread and best of luck.

NCsmitty

 

[redneck2]

I think a lot of guys spin their wheels when they chase the MOA thing. As noted in most of the posts above, you need to start with a good platform. In order, I'd look at

#1...quality of the barrel. If your barrel is crap, you're never gonna shoot straight consistently. A factory barrel may or may not do well. If your barrel was the first one made with new tooling, you're good to go. If it was the last one, you're most likely sunk. Guys that argue the Savage-Remington-(other) are idiots. Any production rifle is luck of the draw unless you pay extra for upgraded stuff. My AR has an air gauged barrel, so it takes out one variable.

#2...quality of the bullets. If you're using pulled mil-surp stuff, odds are you're out of luck. Different rifles like different stuff. There was an article in Handloader magazine a few years ago about bullet quality. Dropping a box of bullets off your workbench onto the floor knocks them out of round enough to affect accuracy.

#3...technique. Now, I know everybody would like to think they're Daniel Boone, but some guys just shoot better, probably due to practice and trigger time. Trigger quality comes in here. There's a reason the bench rest boys use Jewel or Timney triggers that measure in ounces instead of pounds. Another part of that is the bench and rest. Note that the guys here that shoot very well have solid benches, good rests, and watch the wind.

#4...I'd rate optics. My AR is scary accurate. Far, far better than I ever dreamed. It's got a 6.5x20x40 VX-III scope. If you can't see your target, you can't hit it.

Whether it's #1 or #4, if it's not right, you're not going to do well.

Edit to add....there was another article in Handloader that covered brass prep. Very, very detailed with all phases covered individually and in groups. Bottom line was that, for anything other than very high quality benchrest guns, detailed brass prep did little or nothing.

 

[azar]

Thanks everyone for your advice, tips, and opinions. I don't know if I trust myself enough to attempt a free-float and bedding myself. I'd be worried about making it worse. There is a local gunsmith who quoted a much lower price than I expected, but I don't think he'd qualify as a "benchrest gunsmith". Then there's the whole aspect that it may not make a difference anyway...

I think that even if my gun was good enough and my loads were good enough already to shoot sub-MOA that I'd still probably be the weakest link. I think that my best course of action will be to see what I can do to become a better shot with the gear I have. If I get to the point that I'm confident enough that I'm shooting as good as my gear allows, then I'll look at tuning the gun or re-barreling or what have you.

Thanks everyone!