Breech Face Erosion from .45 auto leaking primers

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What appears to maybe be a divot below the 45?

I rarely trust single photo views anymore.

It is all to easy for lighting angle to turn a bulge into a depression.
 
Yep...and beside Federal. The two marks appear to be identical marks on a twice-reloaded case. When they first jumped into the 1911 market, Smith & Wesson had the same issues with several breechfaces. I've seen it occasionally on recent Springfields.

I rarely trust single photo views anymore.
Click to expand...

Me either...but there are two identical marks, and I thought it might warrant a closer look.
 
I've had gas cutting running weak loads with hard primers. Solution was to increase loads or run softer primers.
 
The picture in post #19 may provide you with a clue. The breechface is mis-machined. There's a step that will hold the rim off the breechface on one side and keeps the rim from immediately reseating the primer. The primer leaks high temp gas under pressure and erodes the steel. Then, the step is swaged into the case rim. The question right now is...how deep is that step? How far from the surface of the step to the surface of the breechface...and the second question...Is your headspace being measured from the step...or from the actual breechface?
Click to expand...

sorry tuner, this brass might have been fired from any combination of several different 1911's, two S&W M&P45cs or a Sig p250. When I got home on Sunday I'll post a picture of a once fired piece of brass from the Range Officer, also federal and without primer blow by.
 
FullEffect1911, What is the lot number on your Winchester primers?

It would certainly be interesting, to me anyway, if it turns out to be CFL 448G. :scrutiny: Have you punched out any of the 'leaking' primers and given them a good going over?

This thread from nearly a year ago will show why my interest has been piqued.

Trouble With A 44 Mag Load???

It may have nothing in common with that thread except Winchester large pistol primers but then again....?

Seedtick

:)
 
Yep...and beside Federal. The two marks appear to be identical marks on a twice-reloaded case. When they first jumped into the 1911 market, Smith & Wesson had the same issues with several breechfaces. I've seen it occasionally on recent Springfields.
Click to expand...

Many 1911s have that step. I had a Wilson CQB with that step. My Ruger 1911 has that step. That isn't the cause of the primer leak.
 
FullEffect1911, What is the lot number on your Winchester primers?
Click to expand...

The lot number of this batch of WLP is DML858G.

Here is a picture of a once fired piece of brass from the Range Officer:

oncefiredbrassRO.jpg

The ejector mark looks to be the "I" before Federal.

Headspace measures as the following:

Empty case: .893"
Feeler gage fit to back of breech face: .017"
Feeler gage fit to step: .015"

Headspace: 0.910"

Tuner I read this method from a previous post of yours on a different forum I think.
 
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full effect,

As you know from your own manuals, those loads you listed are NOT hot loads. They are in the mid-range.
The problem is NOT ammo related. I've reloaded cases of scores of headstamps scores of times with never a loose primer pocket. I can't actually recall a case of a loose primer pocket in .45ACP. And, cleaning the primer pockets on .45ACP is, like practice bleeding, a total waste of time.
The problem IS, therefore, the slide as some have already indicated. I just checked a couple of .45s that are high mileage and have had everything run through them. They have a shiny circle on the bolt face that mimics the outline of the primer, but no, not any at all, not even a little bit, degradation of the steel at all. Bad slide. Get Springfield to fix it.
 
full effect,

As you know from your own manuals, those loads you listed are NOT hot loads. They are in the mid-range.
The problem is NOT ammo related. I've reloaded cases of scores of headstamps scores of times with never a loose primer pocket. I can't actually recall a case of a loose primer pocket in .45ACP. And, cleaning the primer pockets on .45ACP is, like practice bleeding, a total waste of time.
The problem IS, therefore, the slide as some have already indicated. I just checked a couple of .45s that are high mileage and have had everything run through them. They have a shiny circle on the bolt face that mimics the outline of the primer, but no, not any at all, not even a little bit, degradation of the steel at all. Bad slide. Get Springfield to fix it.
Click to expand...

While this may be true, it still doesn't explain why there is scorch marks on the primers. Bad steel or not hi pressure jets of hot gas will erode pretty much any steel.
 
Based on your photo, I don't see anything awry. Could be a result of or reaction to what's going on on the breechface.
 
pull the primer out, wash it, then hold it up to the light. The little pinhole of light at the shoulder you see is God telling you to stop buying winchester wlp primers. They used to be great, but recent lots are well documented failures. I was lucky I noticed it after five shots in my 44mag.

edfardos
 
sure, first few hits by google searching: "wlp primer pierced lots".

best,
edfardos
 
edfardos Posted October 13 said:
My last 1000 WLP primers functioned perfectly! My new lot of 1000 WLP primers damage my revolver as they pierce and firecut into my recoil plate. I sent Winchester $5 worth of bad ammo to fire, in the hopes they'll say it's bad, and send me another lot of primers which may-or-may-not be any better, which I'll probably unload on craigslist since I can't trust Winchester anymore.
Click to expand...
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7651057#post7651057

edfardos, did you ever hear back from Winchester?

If this is true, it is of interest to me as I use WSP/WLP for pistol and WLR for .308 loads.
 
I read that linked thread. I had found it curious that my recent Win LPP (batch DLL) have a different color to the cup/compound then my older batch, purchased a year and a half ago.

I just ran out of the older ones and have only mixed in 30 of the new ones with my current reloads. I'll have to keep a watch out. Thanks for the heads up!
 
Yes, I heard back from winchester. They were very professional, but it did take them two months to respond. I don't know if my samples ever went to QA. They also sent me a gift-certificate to cover my trouble. So outstanding company, just a bad product. Everyone is entitled to a bad day or QA problems. I'm guessing they got bad brass (high zinc, low copper), which was too hard or thin and they failed. They said the Rifle primers are made with an entirely different process and material, and that any WLP issues I was having would not necessarily apply to the WLR primers I have.

Another (best) thread on this, which tries to gather bad lot numbers:

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/vie...&start=0&sid=bfa3c2aec2e521465ac3f4a891a4b9a2

fwiw, i switched to CCI350 primers, and never had another issue -- it doesn't mean cci's great, but at least they don't erode my breach face (recoil plate in the case of my revolver).

best,
-edfardos
 
Well I finally punched out the primer and inspected it.

As it turns out it the breech face erosion is due to the rounded edge of the primer cup cracking and leaking. So the primer pockets are not loose and the gun is good, it is just a poor lot of WLP primers.

There was no powder marks alongside the primer pocket of the case or at the rim of the cup. The crack formed at the rounded edge. Perhaps it has something to do with the chamfer on the brass's primer pocket. When the primer gets somewhat deformed from firing, it may deform extra into a deeper primer pocket chamfer and if brittle it might crack.

Long story short my research into the matter seems to indicate that Winchester WLP primers seem do be doing this on occasion.

I just got 2k of Win Small pistol primers.... I hope it doesn't happen with my new Glock.
 
Great. I made 30 round with these primers, but they're mixed up with about 250 good rounds. Thanks for the followthrough and the links, guys.
 
please share the lot numbers of the failed primers (everyone who has pits on their breachfaces).

thanks,
edfardos
 
as it turns out it the breech face erosion is due to the rounded edge of the primer cup cracking and leaking. So the primer pockets are not loose and the gun is good, it is just a poor lot of wlp primers.
Click to expand...

It looks as if this problem isn't confined to a 'particular' lot of bad primers.

It appears to be an 'ongoing' problem with bad primers or maybe it's just Winchester's *S.O.P.

Our bad lot number was CFL 448G.

Seedtick

:)

*(Standard Operating Procedure) :mad:
 
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