Bringing beatdown to a gunfight

[Lbys]

Didn't see this posted yet. Mods, feel free to merge/delete if I missed it.

I'd like to ask some questions about responding to situations similar to those depicted in the video at this link (click on "Featured Video" box at right):

http://www.newson6.com/Global/story.asp?s=8810893

Text of the accompanying story (one of many) is below. My questions, to hopefully get the discussion started:

• Would you engage as a bystander before it got to the fistfight, knowing you're in a grocery store with other customers around?
• Better to engage or to bug out a back door/emergency exit, call 911, and take cover against accomplices?
• Once you make the decision to engate (as Stutzman did), what's the value of technique vs. an adversary who has none? (Other than maybe avoiding a busted jaw and 12 stitches.)
• You're a bystander, and Stutzman has just subdued the robber. Do you lend assistance? Thoughts on the guy who jumps in after the robber is down and starts kicking the crook?
• In a crowd, after the crook is subdued, and assuming you haven't up to this point, do you draw your CCW to hold the suspect until police arrive? (I'm guessing no--guy with a gun as cops roll up is probably not a good way to be.)

These points are just meant to start discussion about how YOU would handle a similar situation. If possible, try to avoid passing judgment on the actions of the participants (except for that guy who pulls the rib-kicking routine--curious to know THR's thoughts on that).

Text of the event:

Customer Nabs Robber

Posted: Aug 8, 2008 10:24 AM CDT

Updated: Aug 9, 2008 07:21 AM CDT

FEATURED VIDEO

CAUGHT ON TAPE: Customer Takes Down Robbery Suspect

Police arrested 38-year old Tony Cleveland.

The Good Samaritan has a broken jaw and a cut on his head.

Police say a man walks in with a gun, his face completely covered.

Tony Cleveland was booked into the Tulsa County jail on complaints of attempted robbery, shooting with intent to kill and assault.

Tulsa Police express their thanks to a citizen who helped them arrest an armed robbery suspect. The News On 6's crime reporter Lori Fullbright reports police say a 44-year-old American Airlines employee is a hero and it was all caught on tape.

The fight wasn't easy. The good Samaritan has injuries all because he was courageous enough to try to save himself and others in the Food Pyramid store, near 51st and Memorial, from a robber who seemed ready to hurt someone.

The robber walked into the store with his face completely covered and his gun already in his hand. He told the employees and customers to move to the front of the store. When a customer bent down, the robber fired a shot that barely missed the customer's head.

Then, the robber's gun jammed and that's when the good Samaritan, Greg Stutzman, jumped on the robber and the fight was on.

The battle moved through the store, out into the entryway and eventually outside. Despite getting hurt in the process, Greg never gave up.

If it wasn't for Greg, police say they'd have no idea who the robber is, because, just as in previous Food Pyramid robberies, he was masked up and not identifiable.

Stutzman has their gratitude and even though they don't recommend fighting with robbers, they believe he did it just right.

"You have to win the fight. You gotta keep going. You can't quit because it hurts, and this guy proves you can win," said Tulsa Police Sgt. Dave Walker.

Officers arrested 38-year-old Tony Cleveland.

Records show he has a number of robbery and assault convictions from Hughes and Oklahoma Counties, including a 25 year sentence in 1987.

Detectives say it's clear Cleveland isn't going to change his ways, so they hope he gets sent back to prison and they say a conviction in this case, should put him there for the rest of his life

 

[gotime242]

I think if he fired a shot already and his gun "jamed" (if that is really what happened)...i would draw and fire at that point.

 

[Chrome]

I would have shot him.

Later,
Chrome...

 

[loneviking]

I'd have shot him, no questions asked. He has a gun, fires a round--gun jams, end of game for this guy. And, I carry a revolver that won't jam!

 

[Titan6]

Would you engage as a bystander before it got to the fistfight, knowing you're in a grocery store with other customers around?

Yes

Better to engage or to bug out a back door/emergency exit, call 911, and take cover against accomplices?

Don't know what you mean by better

Once you make the decision to engate (as Stutzman did), what's the value of technique vs. an adversary who has none? (Other than maybe avoiding a busted jaw and 12 stitches.)

I don't understand the question

You're a bystander, and Stutzman has just subdued the robber. Do you lend assistance?

I already would have

Thoughts on the guy who jumps in after the robber is down and starts kicking the crook?

Unless he is trained in subdue techinques he is likely doing the best he can. Once the bad guys gives up it is time to stop kicking.

In a crowd, after the crook is subdued, and assuming you haven't up to this point, do you draw your CCW to hold the suspect until police arrive?

I would, but the bad guy would be kneeling with his hands behind his head anyway...

 

[Jim March]

Boom. Guy shoots to kill and his gun jams? Draw and (sighted) fire, zero hesitation.

This is exactly why I load my first two sixgun rounds as good 38+P and then the rest as full house 357. This is one of those times the pair of 38s is probably going to be enough, and in a bystander-dense environment the reduced power makes sense. After those two rounds, if more is needed with any luck bystanders have ducked and/or beat feet, making it slightly safer to throw down big power.

Now, if an unarmed good guy like Greg Stutzman has already jumped the guy and they're doing their best impression of an MMA fight, THAT requires caution. Don't want to shoot Stutzman! Diving into that with a knife actually makes some sense, if you know what you're doing with cutlery it's the king of the close-quarters weapons and with that shot already fired by the goblin this is still a lethal force situation...it's open season on goblin, backstab him, cut his throat, it's all good so long as you don't hurt anybody else.

Failing that, holding the gun up and yelling to Stutzman to get clear of the goblin so I can shoot him might work - it might also cause the goblin to surrender. This would require serious "finger off trigger" discipline and not getting close enough to accidentally get wrapped up in the furball going on.

 

[Old Guy]

Well for one, kicking ribs with tentative little kicks, NOT! once you were in the street? Who is on your side? Kicking in neck and head screaming get the Police he molested my daughter, over and over, now the whole world is on your side.

The person bending down looked to be going for an ankle holster?

BANG! face covered individual attempting to get his weapon cleared? I would have aimed carefully, and shot him once in the upper chest. That would have been a good start, scan and take it from there, for sure no gun in hand when the boys turn up!

Reason for above actions? not macho crap, do not want to be shot by him, on purpose, or by accident! And if he has a gun in hand, if he gets it working? not an acceptable risk to go anywhere in a store that is locked up, you are really forced to stop the action.