(Britain) To First U.S. Bobby, Unarmed Is Unsafe

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Drizzt

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To First U.S. Bobby, Unarmed Is Unsafe
Officer's Outcry Revives Debate on Gun Policy

By Kevin Sullivan
Washington Post Foreign Service
Sunday, December 11, 2005; A26

READING, England -- During his training to become a British police officer, Ben Johnson recalled, an instructor told him and other recruits, "If you ever see somebody carrying a gun, turn and run away as quickly as possible."

"It was a bizarre situation," said Johnson, 34, a former police officer in Garland, Tex., and U.S. Army soldier who moved here with his British wife three years ago and became this country's first non-British police officer. He said running from trouble was exactly the opposite of what he learned as an American cop.

Now Johnson is publicly challenging one of the great traditions of law enforcement in Britain, what he calls the "old-fashioned idea of the unarmed bobby on the beat." He has written to his chief asking for permission to carry a gun, arguing that Britain is no longer safe for unarmed and under-trained police officers. He says he will resign if the chief refuses.

Johnson's case has caused a media furor here, partly because an American -- a Texan no less -- is claiming he feels less safe as a police officer in Britain than he did on the beat in the United States, which is routinely portrayed here as a gun-drunk Wild West.

But Johnson has also reignited a debate about whether more British police should carry guns in an era of terrorism and increasing violent crime. His supporters argue that British police need guns to protect themselves, but opponents suggest it would just lead to more gun crime. Some people who advocate arming more officers concede that even petty criminals might arm themselves in response.

Johnson said his decision was sealed by last month's death of unarmed officer Sharon Beshenivsky, a mother of three, killed as she responded to an alarm at a travel agency in the city of Bradford. She was the second police officer to be fatally shot in the past five years; in the same period two officers were stabbed to death and at least 44 were injured by firearms, according to government statistics.

Johnson and several police advocacy groups are calling for the arming of more officers; the government says only that about 6,000 of the 142,000 officers in England and Wales currently carry guns. Each police department has a small number of armed officers who are called to confront potentially armed suspects; patrol officers carry only handcuffs, pepper spray and a nightstick.

Home Office Minister Hazel Blears, who oversees all police matters, told the BBC recently that it was "extremely questionable" whether Britain had enough armed officers and that the issue should be "properly debated."

Metin Enver, spokesman for the Police Federation, the representative body for all British police officers, said his group wants about 10 percent of police armed -- roughly twice the current number. But, he said, a 2003 survey of the officers nationwide found that 80 percent did not want to carry a gun.

Enver said that "a few" more might prefer to be armed now, following last summer's deadly bombings of the London public transport system. But he said many don't want to carry a gun because of the "huge onus and burden" it places on officers.

Several London officers are under investigation and could face criminal charges for the fatal shooting in July of Jean Charles de Menezes, a Brazilian electrician. Police apparently mistook him for a terrorist suspect. Enver said the responsibility of carrying a gun "has to be off-putting" for many officers.

Britain has some of the world's toughest gun-control laws, and violent crime, while increasing, is still far less common than in the United States. There were 184 murders last year in London, a city of more than 7 million people, compared with 572 in New York City, which has 8 million people.

Here in Reading, a pretty university city of more than 144,000 about 45 miles west of London, Johnson said the leadership of Britain's police doesn't grasp the threat already facing officers on the street. His department here, the Thames Valley Police, had no comment on his request to carry a gun.

"The U.K. is changing rapidly, and the police have been slow to adapt," said Johnson, 6-foot-4 and razor thin, cradling his infant daughter in his lap in the dining room of his neat row house. "We should value the lives of police officers enough to properly equip them and train them to do the job -- even if that means getting rid of some old-fashioned notions."

Johnson, who used to stand ceremonial guard duty at the White House and other Washington sites as a member of the 3rd U.S. Infantry Regiment, said British police need far better training.

He said he had 36 weeks of academy training and supervised field work to become a police officer in Texas. But at Thames Valley he said he received less than half that, and most of the instruction involved how to fill out paperwork.

Johnson said British officers are instructed to retreat if they see a gun and call for backup from armed officers, but that can give suspects time to escape. He said he recently found himself in the same room with a man wanted for attempted murder and he could easily have taken the suspect by surprise and apprehended him.

But, Johnson said, because the man was believed to be armed, he was ordered not to approach him. The suspect walked away and was arrested by armed officers two days later.

"If he had gone out and committed more violent crimes in those two days," Johnson said, "I would have felt personally responsible."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/10/AR2005121001222_pf.html

why when I read this article do I keep hearing that line from Monty Python and the Holy Grail "run away! run away!"
 
If there is a will there is a way, then problem solved

If this trainee police officer wants to carry a gun on duty, then he can inform his inspector and get a transfer to an armed patrol section-which are ordinary patrolmen and women, but are armed with a Glock 17 9mm pistols or Walther P99s, in addition to their nightsticks and C.S. sprays.

They do exist and I have seen them walking around in london and other towns and cities in the UK. Alternatively he could join the SWAT units, because he is familiar with guns and they recruit officers from the forces, to save money on extensive combat training.

Or he could join the Ministry of Defence Police and he will be issued with a service pistol and he will be allowed to wear this whilst on duty.
 
[sarcasm]Of course, what does he have to worry about? With such good gun control in the UK the bad guys don't have guns.[/sarcasm]

If I were a civilian citizen there, this would just get me that much more irate at the stupidity of it all.
 
I don't understand why any policement in the UK need guns--are guns there super-restricted?

Why can't they use the same methods of dealing with criminals that citizens/victims use? SWAT teams over there don't need the guns--I mean, I've never heard of bad guys killing or raping a SWAT team. Bad guys go after the citizenry.
 
Britain has some of the world's toughest gun-control laws, and violent crime, while increasing, is still far less common than in the United States. There were 184 murders last year in London, a city of more than 7 million people, compared with 572 in New York City, which has 8 million people.
This quote struck me, if only because other reports would have led me to believe otherwise.

Does anyone know the basis/source of these numbers?
 
I'm recalling the old Monty Python skit about what you do if being attacked by a person armed with a banana.

I think they should go back to carrying riding crops and go around smacking people on the head saying, "Roight! What's this then? Bugger off you lot!"
 
One thing that bothers me about this controversy is that it is strictly about arming the police.

Arming the citizens comes first. Only AFTER the citizens have guns should the police be allowed to have them.

Never arm the government better than the citizens. Yes, I know that is what we have here in the U.S., but I also think the U.S. is in trouble because of it.
 
Does anyone know the basis/source of these numbers?
FBI UCR says 570 "murders and non-negligent manslaughters" in NYC in 2004, last data available I think. That's Table 8, Offenses Known to Law Enforcement, by City 10,000 and over. Nationally, in 2004, 66% of murders were by firearm, but I have no idea about NYC.

UK Crime Statistics shows 212 homicides from April 2003 through March 2004 - but there is no breakdown of weapon. Generally, prior year data shows a very small number of murders in the UK by firearm, about 7%.

See also the Bureau of Justice Statistics page for international crime statistics links.

Do those two numbers actually mean anything, in the context of comparing countries? I don't think so.
 
But Johnson has also reignited a debate about whether more British police should carry guns in an era of terrorism and increasing violent crime. His supporters argue that British police need guns to protect themselves, but opponents suggest it would just lead to more gun crime. Some people who advocate arming more officers concede that even petty criminals might arm themselves in response.

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It does lead to more gun crime. Its very easily proven. Every time some government agents have all the crime goes through the roof. People arm themselves in response and revolutions are fought. :)
 
Britain has some of the world's toughest gun-control laws, and violent crime, while increasing, is still far less common than in the United States. There were 184 murders last year in London, a city of more than 7 million people, compared with 572 in New York City, which has 8 million people.

Having partial gun control always means the restricted areas will drag our statistics down.
New York isint exactly a gun friendly city. Im not sure if we have a comparable sized urban with gun laws relaxed enough to matter in that argument.
One thing I do notice is the rate of assault, rape, and general crime isint too different for all the extra police and money theyve spent on controling guns.

Even if you came with a statistic that said I was 10 times less likely to be shot in a gun free nation, I'd still prefer to live here and keep my dignity intact.
Cops running from criminals is just... sad.
 
So then who were the cops that executed that Brazilian electrician in the Underground station? They were certainly armed. Were they ever charged with anything?

And a resident of the area tells me that they regularly see police carrying MP5's in the city.
 
Why should the cops carry?

The reason British cops are generally unarmed is that until relatively recently (about 1930?) civilians were generally armed and the cops had no porblem getting armed help when they needed it. Unfortunately, when the cops are armed and unarmed civilians need help, it is rarely available until too late.

I have no problem with cops being armed to defend themselves; but if only they or we can be armed, the British experience says we (the civilians) should be the ones who are armed.
 
Guns are most Certainly not all Super restricted In the UK!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MUDPUPPY

I will explain to you as I have explained to others in other threads about what weapons are and are not legal and what ones are super-restricted.In the UK, if you want a firearm you must go to your local police station and get an

application form, which are available in variations.The first is: A FAC (Firearm Certificate) and the second is,(SGC) A Shotgun certificate.

A firearm certificate is for (Section1) firearms that include:All manually-operated centrefire and rimfire rifles, all air-rifles that are more powerful than 12 foot-pounds, all semi-auto and pump-action rimfire-rifles, all long-barrelled revolvers and pistols;and finally all repeating-shotguns with a magazine capacity of 4 shells or more.Muzzleloaders of all kinds are also licensed.

A Shotgun certificate is for (Section 2) classed weapons and these include:All single or double barrelled shotguns and combination-shotguns; all repeating-shotguns with a shell capacity 1 to 3.This certificate is easier to get than the first one, because single and double-barrelled shotguns are catagorised as less-lethal than guns that hold several bullets or shells, because they are limited to two projectiles a time. All shotgun shells of any calibre are all section-two and are therefore unrestricted by numbers,-with the exeption maybe of rifled-slug shells.

All repeating-shotguns with a limited-capacity are treated as double or single-barrelled weapons and are crimped.

Section 5 Weapons: Weapons and ammunition listed here are of types that the government over the course of time has deemed inappropriate for civillian use, in which are classed as the most dangerous. These include: All fully-automatic weapons, all missile launchers, war explosives and all other weapons of war.

Since 1988,-after the Hungerford Massacre on the 19th August 1987,-all centrefire pump-action and semi-automatic rifles have been banned and placed under section 5, as well as armour-piercing bullets; certain knives and shotguns.Since 1997 and 1998, After the Dunblane Massacre, all standard handguns and hollow-point ammunition have been added to this category, but are available in the category below, only in certain circumstances.

Restricted Weapons and Ammunition: If you are a pest controller or a bonefide professional-hunter or weapons-collector, then you may apply for a variation permit in addition to your certificate. Restricted Weapons and ammunition are: Silenced rifles and shotguns,hollow-point ammunition(For hunters and pest-controllers only.) Antique pistol variation (Section 7 .1;.3 types): These are extremely hard to get and only if you are a bonefide collector, but you can obtain and shoot any pistol that is made before 1919.Standard handguns are available too, if you can prove a good reason to the cops and the law courts to justify your reasons for ownership. These are restricted in the same way as pump and semi-automatic rifles and shotguns are in Australia.

I hope I have made things clearer for you. Thanks for reading.
 
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The line that freaked me out the most:

"If you ever see somebody carrying a gun, turn and run away as quickly as possible."

The LAST people I'd want running from an armed criminal would be law enforcement. Especially if the citizenry can't be armed.

I realise that there are a special armed division, but I feel it's bad idea to wait for an "armed cop" in some situations like that.
 
Quick qustion, I didn't quite understand everything. How leagel or how hard is it to get a black powder revolver in England?
 
Easier than you might think

EAB

It doesn't matter whether you apply for a license in England, Wales or Scotland, our major laws are almost the same,hence the name, The United Kingdom,-draughted-up legislation by the UK Home Office. We lost pistols because of a nut-job in Scotland and this affected all UK countries, including England and Wales and obviously as well as in Scotland, but not in Northern Ireland, because they are exempt from mainland firearm laws.

The only exeption in the 1997 firearm ammendment act, is that Scotland doesn't appear to favour the Section 7.1 and 7.3 Collectors permit and it appears that it is not permitted to licensed shooters in Scotland at all, but is allowed in England and Wales.

Now to answer your question properly: How legal or how hard is it to get a black-powder revolver in England?-the latter should be rephrased to the UK.Well it is simple:if you want a black-powder revolver, than you must go to police station and obtain a Section 1 Firearms license and fill it out and wait a while, while your credentials-including your mental health-are checked out by the firearms-licensing
department.

In the meantime you will have to make your house secure and install appropriate alarms,-if you havn't already done so-that act as a visable deterrant to any would-be burglars. ADT Alarms are most favourable and recommended by UK Police forces (Mine, Kent County Constablury certainly did.) because these types of alarms, have a direct link to your local station, should a burglar successfuly break into your house.

If the area-like my area-has a low crime rate than the cops will favour it more-so than an area with a higher or extermely high crime rate.
You will need to install an approved locker or cabinet in your house or appartment in an appropriate location, that is secluded from general view. You will be advised by the cops where to install it. Finally the licensing department charges you a fee,for a license and you will have to renew this every five years.

The cabinet or locker must be bolted to a fixed wall or cement-floor with rawl-bolts, to prevent and discourage a successful theif from stealing it and opening it later. Your ammo and black-powder must be stored in the small-locker compartments in your cabinet or locker or in a small locker that is separate from the firearms locker.

You now will be able to collect your license or have it mailed to you and you can head to your local gunshop to purchase the black-powder revolver of your choice.

But before all of this you need to be a member of a gun-club for a certain amount of months, because the club secretary will have to submit a report to your firearm licensing-department on your probation and will have to act as one of your referees, for your license.This of course is not always carried out as I have described, because some police-forces are more anti-gun than others.
 
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One small correction:

Semi-auto rifles are legal if they are .22rimfire.


Also, regarding the tradition of the police not being armed, I believe that was also because (originally) the public were much more concerned about the idea of the government using continental-style paramilitary police to keep the population under control.

I once read a quote, supposedly from Robert Peel (the Prime Minister who first organised the Metropolitan Police, hence the terms "Bobby", and earlier "Peeler") to the effect that the police should be be nothing more than members of the public paid to do full-time what everyone would be expected to do as needed.

(Relevant Wikipedia articles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Peel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_Principles)

Regarding the shooting of Mr Menezes: there is a lot of disquiet, or outright anger, in the UK about this incident, but the circumstances are still being investigated, so I can't say what the outcome will be. Apparently there was a lot of incompetance, and quite possibly post cock-up cover-up, by the police directing the operation. Supposedly the armed police were given the order "He's a terrorist. Don't let him get on the train". The log book recording these orders was allegedly altered after the fact to say "He's not a terrorist", presumably to shift the blame from those who misidentified him to the shooters. But then I've read comments in the newspapers from former armed policemen saying that even then, the decision to and responsibility for shooting still and must always lie with the shooters themselves.

Of course, as with most police shootings in the UK, public opinion seems to split in to two groups: those that think the the moment anyone vaguly suspicious-looking fails to instantly comply with police orders he should be shot before he has the chance to cause any harm, and those that think even when someone has taken a hostage and is threatening the police with a gun the most they should do is shoot him in the foot, or shoot the gun out of his hand (or be sufficiently psychic to know that it was actually a replica).
 
This thread makes me glad we threw their butts out of the USA (twice in fact) Then we had to save their butts twice in the last century. They have still not learned what freedom is probably has something to do with the stupid class thingy they had going for so long.:banghead:
 
Not quite class related issues, but close

GEEZER

The reason why the government enacted these bans is for a number of reasons,-primarily because alot of citizens wanted self-loading rifles banned after Hungerford and later handguns banned, after Dunblane. If you look at the aftermarth of the 1999 Columbine high-School massacre,on tv or on Micheal Moore's "Bowling For Columbine", you will see that Tom Mauser,father of murdered straight-A student Daniel, will rant and rave about Assault Weapons and handguns and will forever denounce the Tec-9 Assault pistol, stating that it:"Is not used to kill deer with and that it has no useful puropse". This is because it was used by one of the boys to shoot his son with-in the head apparently.

I watched a documentary about the Dunblane massacre recently and it featured the parents of children who went to the school and also teachers who taught there. The P.E.(Games) teacher told of her horrifying experiance when she saw Thomas Hamilton burst through the door,with a terrible grin on his face and started to open fire on her and her children.The gun was later identified as one of his Browning Hi-Power pistols and that made her so angry that anyone in the UK could legally own one at all, so she and others demanded a change in the law, from the Conservative government.

Gun owners all over the World are mainly sympethetic towards one-another and most anti-gunners are pretty much the same,-in terms of their beliefs.

You can't judge the UK soley on the basis that it hasn't changed since the time of the American Revolution-we Brits are like any other people in the world, but what we don't have is a citizens-rights bill protecting our interests, so that it prevents anti-gunners and do-gooders from messing things up, for us completely

Prince Philip is a pro-gun person and was very angry at the time of Dunblane and said that pistols were: peices of sporting equipment, but the press and members of the newly-formed Gun-Control-Network, criticised his level of sensitivity.

People elect the government, people spark changes and revolutions and alot of citizens were angry that people were allowed by UK law,to own pistols and assault-rifles freely and so they demonstrated to such an extent, that they said:"We are not going away, until there is a absolute ban"

G-36 UK, If you're reading please tell geezer that alot of Scottish people were against handgun ownership and there were mass-demonstrations in Scotland,- and that these bans were about winning hearts and minds, in order to get elected, in the 1997 General Election.
 
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Its an old article. In addition to the good comments from Iapetus and sterling180:

i) you get more than 36 weeks training as a police officer in the UK. Basically you have 18 weeks initial training, which (in the Met at least) takes place at Hendon and which introduces the trainee to the law, the various computer systems, the various bits of paperwork etc (though this is being changed - some training will take place at sites other than Hendon). The officer then, assuming they have made it through, goes onto an individual Borough for ten weeks of whats called the "Street Duties" course, paired with a tutor constable they patrol around. They then serve the remainder of two years (when the 28 weeks of Hendon and Street Duties are taken out) on probation, only being confirmed at the end of that period.

ii) there are several armed units in London. The uniformed armed police are usually from Airport Security (SO18), Royalty Protection, Diplomatic Protection (SO14), the Palace of Westminster (Parliament to the uneducated :p ) and SO19 (who provide the bulk of the armed response to incidents - the others being tasked with guarding facilities). There are also allegedly armed plain-clothed officers in the new Anti-Terrorist crowd, and the Flying Squad (who deal exclusively with commercial and cash-in-transit armed robberies). This is actually less officers than were firearms-trained than in the mid 1980s, though the level of training is on average a lot higher.

The de Menezes shooting is of course still being investigated, though its worth remembering that the standard radio of the Metropolitan Police (if thats what they are using) does not work underground (neither do mobiles), so if they had wanted to recall the team they could not have done so quickly.

Of course the above is personal opinion :D
 
Yes you are right about that, but there is more

IAPETUS

You are absolutely right about semi-auto rifles only being permitted in .22 calibre, but there was talk a couple of years ago that the government are deciding whether or not to make all of the new rimfire semi-auto's that are chambered in 17HMR, Mach3 etc, Section 1 firearms,in the near future.

I believe that this is still being debated in the Houses of Parliement, now.

I hope so because I am bored with just firing .22 semi-auto rifles.
 
There are armed Patrols in every force

Agricola

Your information on the Police,-in particular the Metropolitan Police-is exellent and it is very accurate,in terms of describing different units of the Metropolitan Police Force.I was in London in May 2002 when I saw an Italian man getting beaten up by some yobbo, for some reason or another.I told my friend to come with me as I sighted a couple of male police officers on patrol.The officers wore standard uniform-including handcuff pouches, baton holsters,waistcoats,etc-but I noticed something quite unusual that they were wearing:The two coppers were carrying 9mm Glock 17 pistols in holsters, plus two magazine pouches, as their counterparts do in New York and in Melbourne.

I approached them and told them that this poor chap was getting beaten up by this yobbo, so the two coppers ran over and sorted out the fight. I asked one of them afterwards:" Is that Glock, going to be standard issue to all coppers everywhere".This guy looks at me incrediously and starts roar with laughter and tells me:no mate, not quite yet, the public will moan that we have the upper-hand,if that's the case in the future......he is thinking what to say next, when he has thought back to when I said:"Glock" and he tells me:"How do you know, what make my pistol is?" "are you in the Police or armed forces". I told him that I am on shore- leave from HMS Raleigh in Plymouth and that I am into airsoft and practical airsoft. He said:"well don't go threatening the locals or you'll get nicked "and started to laugh again. He also told me that a lot of coppers were angry that the government robbed them and the Police clubs of privately-owned pistols and now they having to resort to lever-actions, to simulate rapid-firing competitions.

When I asked him if he was SO19, he told me that he was a member of an armed patrol section, that are armed with handguns, to do routine anti-terrorist beats.The thought of a Heckler and Koch MP5 Carbine, might upset some people, so thats why they did'nt carry any.

At the end of our conversation, I asked "If you can use one, can't I own one.", he told me:"Im afraid not or I'll have to nick you, for possession of a section 5 weapon."

After the conversation ended he shook my hand and left, to go back to his red BMW patrol car.What a nice copper, unlike some I have met in the past.
 
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UK had problems long before the shootings. Gee remember the big need after Dunkirk the apeals to America for arms to repel the Hun that was soon to be at your shores?
It was always fine for your lords and masters to have arms but not the common man.
 
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