Britsh Lee Enfield 303

[Waterboy3313]

I'm kind of curious about the Enfield 303 rifle. I've never seen one in person. I have heard ammo can be hard to get etc. I'm curious how these rifles do for accuracy etc. I do reload but the way components are it would probably be a while until I could find supplies to reload if I had one. I know someone that does have one that I could aquire if I absolutely wanted it. Not saying I'm going to make him an offer or anything. But I am kind of curious about them.

I'm just curious for the sake of being curious. What would be a decent price to pay for a non collector? How good of a rifle are they? I know they have been around forever but how do they stack up to say a German 8mm Mauser? How hard is it to get ammunition/reloading components in normal times?

I definitely don't want one so bad I would pay stupid prices or anything. I'm not a collector but I do have some old milsurp rifles from the WW2 era.

I remember being a kid visiting my grandparents every Sunday and looking through the news paper. I would always look through the big 5 ad and remember seeing the Enfield's, Mausers,nagants and a lot of rifles for cheap that are now collectors.

Like I said just curious is all. I probably won't act on it unless it's a smoking good deal.

 

[Robert]

The are two major rifles chambered in 303. The No1MkIII and the Rifle No4 MkI and MkII. The No1MkIII was the last variant of the No1 Magazine Lee Enfield. You can spend hours and hours reading up on just those rifles and their variants. The MkIII was used in WW1, WW2, and even later by some armies. The Rifle No4 was used in WW2 up into the late 50s. Both were replaced by the SLR (FAL).

The British Muzzleloaders channel on YouTube has some great videos on both rifle groups, as does Forgotten Weapons.

So it really depends on which 303 you are talking about.

 

[Chevelle SS]

Prices run from $150 for sporterized beaters to many thousands for rare models. Expect a Mark III* or a Number 4 to start at $400 up to $800 for something in original configuration that is a shooter. They are good rifles in my opinion although many have poor bores. I prefer Mausers myself as they have better stripper clips. Enfields can cycle faster and hold ten rounds as opposed to five if that matters to you.

Ammo is pretty easy to find at sporting good stores/gun shops during normal times, probably won't find it at Walmart though. Can't speak to components for reloading as I don't reload 303, probably about the same as 8mm Mauser, 7mm Mauser, 6.5 Swedish etc.

 

[1942bull]

I cannot comment with expertise on the Enfield, but I did see them in action once. I was assigned to cover a joint Australian Army/USMarine operation in Nam. The Aussies were carrying Enfield Carbines. Those rifles seemed indestructible. They were easy to handle and accurate. The bolt action was super reliable. If I were a rifle guy, I would own one.

 

[MosinT53Hunter]

There is also some variants that were converted to .410 gauge and 22. training rifles. Usually found in MKIII versions.

(there are two types of .410 gauge Enfields, usually Ishapore versions. The original .410 is formed from .303 British brass, usually for a lead slug. The other is reamed ones that basically converted them to modern .410 shotgun shells.)

SGAmmo has some 303. British for sale, but I expect prices to go down a bit as the year goes on.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

I have a .410 Ishapore and it is an absolute hoot.

There is also the Ishapore 2A variant chambered in .308. I had a poorly chopped tanker 2A which had all sorts of problems, but Id take another unadulterated example in a heartbeat.

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

What, no mention of the #5 'Jungle" carbine? I have three and and enjoy them all. The bullets used by the .303 are the same as is used by the Mosin 7.65 x 54 and are .312 in diameter. I think I am up to 7 Enfields in total and enjoy them all but I don't shoot bench rest with them so I cannot attest to the accuracy in minutes of angle terms.

 

[Archie]

I have four rifles chambered in .303 British. One is a Ruger No 1, so as nifty as it is, we'll leave it out of the discussion.
Ammunition is currently made in more or less military configuration by Privi Partizan Uzice (Serbia). With the proviso I do not know what effect the COVID panic had on that company. There is some surplus, but it is growing ever less available. Packets marked POF stand for "Pakistan Ordnance Factory" and do not have a great reputation for consistency. Not mentioned as 'dangerous'.

I have two WW1 Lee-Enfields. They are in pretty good shape, considering their age and they've likely been through at least one war and handled a lot. They both shoot the PPU ammunition at more or less military velocities and are certainly suitable for general use - the type I have are FMJ and therefore not suitable for hunting. U. S. Commercial ammunition for the .303 British is available in soft point configuration and suitable for most game in the Continental U. S. Probably on the lighter side for an enraged bear. The charger (stripper) clips work well but do take a bit of practice and learning. Of course, installing a receiver mounted scope prohibits the use of a charger clip. Trigger pulls are usable, but not nearly target grade. Cases are easy to reload - except the surplus Berdan primed cases. Large Rifle primers and powder of suitable nature (about the same powder as .308 Winchester, check manual) are - absent panic - available and bullets of suitable diameter are easy to find - absent panic. Loading dies are made by everyone from Lee Precision to RCBS and Redding.

It was designed as a battle rifle. Accuracy is directed at hitting the torso of a belligerent at ranges of 500 yards or less. Accuracy is not of bench rest grade. The original sights on the WW1 types (No. 3s, generally) do not enhance the accuracy, but are good for battle. They were made to endure battle and continue to shoot. They do both quite well.

Cost varies. There are many 'sporterized' No 3s and no 4s about. The sporterisation ranges from crude to quite nice. Originals are getting more and more scarce. Probably in the range of $400 for a poor condition (from a collector standpoint) to over $1000 for a really pristine sample. The sporterized items also vary, but lower. I've seen some at the local gun show in the $100 - $200 range. But they have been run hard and put away wet more than once.

I also have a P14 - the forerunner of the U. S. rifle M1917. It is actually an Enfield design, but not a Lee-Enfield. Most everything said about a M1917 is true for the P14 as well.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Well, I have around 24 Enfields in my collection. Prices have skyrocketed in the last couple of years.
A No1 MkIII in good condition will run you $400 to $800. One in excellent condition will run you $800 and up.
Here’s what they looks like.

If you hand load for a No1 MkIII, flat base bullets do best.

People get confused about the model numbers, more so when it comes to The No4 family of rifle. This is because the No4 rifles look the same.
First there’s the No4 MkI and the No4 MKI* They are the same except how the bolt is removed from the action. To cut cost and speed production during WWII they made a minor change and add the * to the model number.
No4 MkI bolt release.


No4 MkI* bolt release.


Then there’s the No4 Mk1 1/2. Basically just an update to a No4 MkI’s trigger. The old trigger was mounted to the trigger guard. The update moved it to the lower part of the action. These rifles are not common.
Then there’s the No4 Mk2. These rifles were factory built with the trigger attached to the action.
The price on a No4 MkI & MkI* are pretty much the same, running in the $400 to $800 range. The others bring a little more.
Here are some No4 rifles.


The easiest way to tell a No4 from a No1 rifle it the No4 barrel sticks out past the end of the forestock. And the rear sight is mounted at the rear of the action.
The No5 is commonly referred to as the Jungle Carbine. These days they bring $700 plus.


As it was said, there is the Ishapore 2A and 2A1. These are chambered for 7.62 NATO. The only difference in the two models is the rear sight leaf. They will run you from $600 to $800
Here’s a 2A.

The look similar to a No1 MkIII but have square ears on the nose cap and a cupped buttplate.


I hope that the pics helped out.

 

[ozarkhillbilly]

I have shot Mauser 98s, 1903s and 303 Enfields and if I had to carry a bolt action into combat it would be the Enfield hands down. It has the fastest bolt action holds 10 rounds and shoots a cartridge that recoils less then the 8mm or 30-06. While the 303 is not quite as powerful as its American or German counter parts I am willing to bet more elephants have been taken with the 303 than the other two combined. It will kill anything in North America no problem, the Canadians just retired theirs for their Arctic patrols.

 

[Riomouse911]

They are neat pieces of British military history. My only .303 is one that was made in the USA by Savage Arms Co. as part of the "Lend-Lease" program with Great Britain prior to our entry into WWII. It looks like one of GunnyUSMC's No. 4's above, with the only obvious difference being "US PROPERTY" stamped on the receiver.

Stay safe.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Here’s a post I did a while back on the No1 MkIII . There are a lot of good comments and info in the topic.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/let’s-see-some-no-1-mk-iii’s.866648/#post-11471833

I didn’t forget to mention the wire wrapped No1 MkIII rifle. These were old WWI rifles that were used as Grenade Launchers during WWII. Prices are around the $400 range without the launcher.


Here’s a topic on the Grenade Launcher rifle.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/no1-mkiii-grenade-launcher-cup.873182/

 

[lysanderxiii]

The accuracy you get out of an Enfields, No 1s, or No 4s depends on who was the last person to mess with the stocking of the fore-end.

If it was a Commonwealth Unit Armorer or a British/Canadian FTR (factory through repair) the accuracy will be excellent, all the holes inside a 6" diameter at 300 yards (if you can shoot that good). If it was anyone that "thinks" he knows more about making accurate Enfields than a British armorer or factory artisan, accuracy will be anywhere from poor to middling.

 

[AlexanderA]

If you are limiting yourself to just one Enfield, get a North American No. 4. (These were made by Savage (U.S.) and Long Branch (Canada).) In terms of finish, these are much nicer than the British-made ones. And put a Singer micrometer rear sight on it.

The No. 4 has a great advantage over the No. 1 Mk. III, and that's the receiver (peep) sight as opposed to the barrel-mounted tangent sight. Also, the No. 4 has a heavier, stiffer barrel.

And for the full experience, get a set of Pattern 37 web gear to go along with it.

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

A quick addendum: the chambers on some LE versions were reamed oversize. When reloading, you may find neck-resizing your brass preferable to a full-length resize.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/t-327809.html

 

[Thomasss]

I hand load for a family member and bench resting at 100yards an Enfield .303 will consistently shoot under 2 inch groups. Now, it has about 15 lbs. trigger pull. I don't rate them as high as a Mauser, but a lot better than a Nagant. Enfield's safety can be tricky, because dropping the gun can cause the safety to slip off. Ammo type is limited to 150 and (174)180 grain bullets. (125 and 215 grain are listed, but have never seen them.) The Enfield also cocks the firing pin on closing rather than on opening as with most other rifles, so one has to push harder on closing.

 

[dh1633pm]

[QUOTE="GunnyUSMC, post: 11986191, member: 176032"I didn’t forget to mention the wire wrapped No1 MkIII rifle. These were old WWI rifles that were used as Grenade Launchers during WWII. Prices are around the $400 range without the launcher.[/QUOTE]

Something about that picture looks very familiar.

 

[wiscoaster]

Since the OP is considering the Enfield against the German Mauser, I have examples of each. There are all kinds of Mausers, but if comparing strictly, say the German K98 against say, strictly the Enfield No 4 Mk I, and given both are in the same condition, I'd say go for the Enfield, strictly because it's a better rifle. [... Ducking behind cover ...] But, if you were to compare it against my Carl Gustav Swedish Mauser, I'd go for the Mauser, because it's better than all other Mausers. [...popping out from behind cover and carrying Carl Gustav...] So please don't make it a generally valid comparison.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

The accuracy you get out of an Enfields, No 1s, or No 4s depends on who was the last person to mess with the stocking of the fore-end.

If it was a Commonwealth Unit Armorer or a British/Canadian FTR (factory through repair) the accuracy will be excellent, all the holes inside a 6" diameter at 300 yards (if you can shoot that good). If it was anyone that "thinks" he knows more about making accurate Enfields than a British armorer or factory artisan, accuracy will be anywhere from poor to middling.

I think that the Enfields on the market haven’t seen a Commonwealth Armorer in over 70 years. I’ve repaired many Enfield forestocks over the years that were cracked due to poor fitting. Many of them were bought straight out of surplus.
But you will find many No1 MkIII fore stocks that are damaged by improper disability. Many people try to remove the butt stock first and end up cracking the back of the fore stock.
The last No1 I bought was damaged.
Just some of the repairs I had to make.

 

[Waterboy3313]

Interesting stuff here. I guess with my lack of experience with these rifles I just assumed there was one type. I'm going to have to figure out exactly what he has.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

The Pakistani POF ammo I had was a test of the shooter. Very often, a click, pause, BANG, like shooting flintlock. Sometimes little or no delay.

I originally had a bandolier of 10 five round chargers (clips), fired maybe ten rounds, set the rest aside.

I got to thinking about someone inheriting my .303 rifle and ammo and trying a "mad minute" exercise.

I took the rifle and ammo out and shot up most of the POF rounds. I saved one loaded five round clip, the bandolier and 9 clips, in a box, with written instructions.

Military surplus .303 ammo has been stored in some of the harshest climates on this planet. Condition can be iffy.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

The Pakistani POF ammo I had was a test of the shooter. Very often, a click, pause, BANG, like shooting flintlock. Sometimes little or no delay.

I originally had a bandolier of 10 five round chargers (clips), fired maybe ten rounds, set the rest aside.

I got to thinking about someone inheriting my .303 rifle and ammo and trying a "mad minute" exercise.

I took the rifle and ammo out and shot up most of the POF rounds. I saved one loaded five round clip, the bandolier and 9 clips, in a box, with written instructions.

Military surplus .303 ammo has been stored in some of the harshest climates on this planet. Condition can be iffy.

The problem with POF 303 ammo is the primer compound they used. We learned many years ago that it worked best if you let the ammo warm up before shooting it. On a hot range day, we would set it in the sun, primers facing up, or just leave it on the dashboard of the vehicle for a while. Ended up with little to no hang fires.

 

[lysanderxiii]

Reloader 15 and Seirra 180 Spire points loaded to 2400 fps make a real good ballistic match to British Mk 7.

Also, some may not know it but there is no need to pull the stripper clip out of the receiver, closing the bolt will automatically eject the clip.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Interesting stuff here. I guess with my lack of experience with these rifles I just assumed there was one type. I'm going to have to figure out exactly what he has.

If you can get a picture of the rifle and post it. There are several here that we be able to ID it for you.

 

[Waterboy3313]

Thanks I appreciate it. I will see what I can do.