Hand_Rifle_Guy
Member
Ok, I was going to post this on the ".30 Mauser and 7.62 Tokarev aren't the same" thread, but this isn't really about that particular question, and this would have qualified as thread drift. So:
One of the things about guns that fascinates me as a collector is the amazing variety of calibers that exist. Different weights and diameters at different speeds and pressures to accomplish different purposes, the evolution of gun and ballistic technology over time, all that interests me intensely. I have bought guns for no other reason than they are examples of a particular caliber. I like certain calibers because of the guns they debuted in. My collection has 44 different calibers represented in it, and I don't even reload.
This all started with a CZ-52. Chambered for the 7.62 x 25 Tokarev, more or less. It's the same as the .30 Mauser, that debuted in the C-96 Broomhandle Mauser, the first commercially successful autoloading pistol invented. The CZ's got thi--
[color=dark-blue]HOOLD it! Brakes, there, sonny. .30 Mauser and Tokarev ammo are NOT the same...[/color]
Well, uh yeah. I knew that. [Points at self.]Caliber_Guy, right? Reads ballistics tables for fun? Studies Gun History and Developement religiously? Anyway, Tokarev is so clo--
[color=dark-blue]WHATEVER you do, DON'T PUT TOKAREV AMMO IN A BROOMHANDLE MAUSER! Everyone knows THAT![/color]
Wellyousee...
Butit'snot... ButIalreadytried... [cue Mental Train Wreck]
HUHH?! Now wait a second, you lost me there, partner. Forwhy are you thinking that? What, everybody? But I... But they...No no no, let me do it this way. Everyone is not WRONG, just let me explain why I think otherwise, and everyone can correct my misconceptions so that I will learn something, yes? Hokay! We will all get along famously! Always , I am willing to learn. That is the biggest benefit of the forum, no? Education! Here, gimme that chalk, I gotta go to the front of the class an' Show 'n Tell...(Well, tell anyway.)...[deep breath]
Now, I don't know the OPERATING PRESSURES involved, but I do know the ballistics, at least the nominal ballistics.
Czechoslovakian M-48 submachinegun ammo for the PPSh-41 (I think.) and the CZ-52, comes in 8-round stripper clips. The box label reads (Periods for spacing.):
-----------------------------------------
7.62-Pi.......................98/53-bxn
.........................................V-53
tbpl/Ms Pask (1/2 an umlaut over the 'a')
40 ks..............Ncdp Pi nma 1/53
----------------------------------------
Headstamped "I", (or 1) "bxn", and "53", spaced equally at 60 degrees. Steel-jacketed FMJ weighing (I think.) 88 grains, taper-crimped into a brass case, 8 rounds/unmarked grey stripper clip that'll fit my Bolo Broomhandle like they were made for it. I've read in several sources that these are rated at something like 1650-1680 fps out of a CZ-52, and belong NOWHERE NEAR any Broomhandle. Heck, I'd think twice before running 'em in a Tokarev, allthough those are stout guns by all accounts and could probably take it. I imagine these were made in '53, at the "bxn' ammo facility. This is the stuff that the CZ-52 and it's stoutish roller-locked action were designed around.
Next we have any given 7.63 Mauser factory load. These are usually rated at 1410 fps with an 85-grain FMJ bullet. Winchester loads this stuff. I imagine the Fiochi stuiff is more-or-less equivalent. Every reference I've seen for 7.63 Mauser has it running 1410 or so out of a 5" Broomhandle Mauser. It's known to shoot flat, be powerful, and do damage all out of proportion to it's caliber and FMJ bullet. The Chinese fell in love with it, and the Broomhandle with it. Russia adopted it along with their fixation on all things German during/after WW-II, plus they could make pistol barrels on their rifle tooling. That takes us too...
7.62 x 25 Tokarev, darling of Mother Russia and her PPSh-41, and of course the Tokarev pistol. Shoots flat enough out of the excellent PPSh-41 to serve as a first-issue weapon when there weren't enough Mosin-Nagants to go around. Russia liked the round, but the Broomhandle is a nightmare of machining to try to make during a war, so the Tokarev, a Browning tilt-barrel design with some major simplifying improvements, (Like no safety catch.) was adopted. The design was distributed to all of the communist sattelite countries for standard issue up through the Cold War, Except until the Makarov was adopted, and of course Czechslovakia, who produced the CZ-52 at Ceska-Sbrojovka's Brno arms factory for all of three years. Typical ubiquitous Norinco 60-rounds/yellow-box steel-jacketed/copper-washed steel-cased rounds with a stab crimp, 86-grain bullet running in the realm of 1250-1350 fps. (I have some dated '93.) Inconsistent stuff, known for it's wide range of velocities attributed to sloppy manafacturing. Clinton banned it's importation because it goes through body armor. Other 7.62 x 25 ammo in brass cases with a stab crimp has been produced in a variety of places in Eastern Europe, usually with the same indifferent quality, (Some's got split necks, f'rinstance.) and all in the same velocity range. One REALLY bad batch of the stuff was splitting guns a while back until word got around, but it wasn't the hot Czech stuff.
The Czech stuff's in strippers. Easy to avoid, and for good reason, it's HOT. 'Nuff said.
What really confuses me is the idea that 7.62 x 25 Tokarev, loafing along at an average of 1300-ish, should be HOTTER, pressure-wise, and more abusive, slide-velocity-wise, to 100-year-old Broomhandle Mausers who are to STRICTLY stay on a diet of factory 7.63 Mauser that runs a consistent 100-150 fps FASTER.
Given a comparable-weight, comparable configuration bullet with an identical case of comparable capacity, doesn't higher velocity equate to higher pressure?
Doesn't the consistently higher velocity of the round equate to higher slide velocity, and therefore commensurately greater battering/abuse?
Unless there is some drastic difference in the pressure curve of the two calibers due to different powder composition that I am unaware of, I'm sufferring a cognitive dissonance here, as my knowledge of ballistics seems to indicate that keeping 7.62 x 25 Tokarev ammunition out of your Broomhandle Mauser in order to preserve it is exactly BACKWARDS!
Cheap-'n-cruddy Tokarev fails to run my Bolo. It acts like it's not got enough "oomph". Lugers like hot ammo, don't they? They balk with light loads. (I know, a cheap parallel, but Lugers are also a very early self-loading design.)
I freely admit I could have it wrong, and I am open to evidence of my ignorance. But way back in 1995 when I first got my CZ-52, and they were relatively unknown or at least not widely discussed, I did a copious amount of research to find out what made these weird Commie guns tick, and learned the backround and ballistics that I Cliff-noted above. Since that time, I've come across the Internet and found this widely disseminated "truism" that contradicts what I thought I knew.
A little help here?
One of the things about guns that fascinates me as a collector is the amazing variety of calibers that exist. Different weights and diameters at different speeds and pressures to accomplish different purposes, the evolution of gun and ballistic technology over time, all that interests me intensely. I have bought guns for no other reason than they are examples of a particular caliber. I like certain calibers because of the guns they debuted in. My collection has 44 different calibers represented in it, and I don't even reload.
This all started with a CZ-52. Chambered for the 7.62 x 25 Tokarev, more or less. It's the same as the .30 Mauser, that debuted in the C-96 Broomhandle Mauser, the first commercially successful autoloading pistol invented. The CZ's got thi--
[color=dark-blue]HOOLD it! Brakes, there, sonny. .30 Mauser and Tokarev ammo are NOT the same...[/color]
Well, uh yeah. I knew that. [Points at self.]Caliber_Guy, right? Reads ballistics tables for fun? Studies Gun History and Developement religiously? Anyway, Tokarev is so clo--
[color=dark-blue]WHATEVER you do, DON'T PUT TOKAREV AMMO IN A BROOMHANDLE MAUSER! Everyone knows THAT![/color]
Wellyousee...
Butit'snot... ButIalreadytried... [cue Mental Train Wreck]HUHH?! Now wait a second, you lost me there, partner. Forwhy are you thinking that? What, everybody? But I... But they...No no no, let me do it this way. Everyone is not WRONG, just let me explain why I think otherwise, and everyone can correct my misconceptions so that I will learn something, yes? Hokay! We will all get along famously! Always , I am willing to learn. That is the biggest benefit of the forum, no? Education! Here, gimme that chalk, I gotta go to the front of the class an' Show 'n Tell...(Well, tell anyway.)...[deep breath]
Now, I don't know the OPERATING PRESSURES involved, but I do know the ballistics, at least the nominal ballistics.
Czechoslovakian M-48 submachinegun ammo for the PPSh-41 (I think.) and the CZ-52, comes in 8-round stripper clips. The box label reads (Periods for spacing.):
-----------------------------------------
7.62-Pi.......................98/53-bxn
.........................................V-53
tbpl/Ms Pask (1/2 an umlaut over the 'a')
40 ks..............Ncdp Pi nma 1/53
----------------------------------------
Headstamped "I", (or 1) "bxn", and "53", spaced equally at 60 degrees. Steel-jacketed FMJ weighing (I think.) 88 grains, taper-crimped into a brass case, 8 rounds/unmarked grey stripper clip that'll fit my Bolo Broomhandle like they were made for it. I've read in several sources that these are rated at something like 1650-1680 fps out of a CZ-52, and belong NOWHERE NEAR any Broomhandle. Heck, I'd think twice before running 'em in a Tokarev, allthough those are stout guns by all accounts and could probably take it. I imagine these were made in '53, at the "bxn' ammo facility. This is the stuff that the CZ-52 and it's stoutish roller-locked action were designed around.
Next we have any given 7.63 Mauser factory load. These are usually rated at 1410 fps with an 85-grain FMJ bullet. Winchester loads this stuff. I imagine the Fiochi stuiff is more-or-less equivalent. Every reference I've seen for 7.63 Mauser has it running 1410 or so out of a 5" Broomhandle Mauser. It's known to shoot flat, be powerful, and do damage all out of proportion to it's caliber and FMJ bullet. The Chinese fell in love with it, and the Broomhandle with it. Russia adopted it along with their fixation on all things German during/after WW-II, plus they could make pistol barrels on their rifle tooling. That takes us too...
7.62 x 25 Tokarev, darling of Mother Russia and her PPSh-41, and of course the Tokarev pistol. Shoots flat enough out of the excellent PPSh-41 to serve as a first-issue weapon when there weren't enough Mosin-Nagants to go around. Russia liked the round, but the Broomhandle is a nightmare of machining to try to make during a war, so the Tokarev, a Browning tilt-barrel design with some major simplifying improvements, (Like no safety catch.) was adopted. The design was distributed to all of the communist sattelite countries for standard issue up through the Cold War, Except until the Makarov was adopted, and of course Czechslovakia, who produced the CZ-52 at Ceska-Sbrojovka's Brno arms factory for all of three years. Typical ubiquitous Norinco 60-rounds/yellow-box steel-jacketed/copper-washed steel-cased rounds with a stab crimp, 86-grain bullet running in the realm of 1250-1350 fps. (I have some dated '93.) Inconsistent stuff, known for it's wide range of velocities attributed to sloppy manafacturing. Clinton banned it's importation because it goes through body armor. Other 7.62 x 25 ammo in brass cases with a stab crimp has been produced in a variety of places in Eastern Europe, usually with the same indifferent quality, (Some's got split necks, f'rinstance.) and all in the same velocity range. One REALLY bad batch of the stuff was splitting guns a while back until word got around, but it wasn't the hot Czech stuff.
The Czech stuff's in strippers. Easy to avoid, and for good reason, it's HOT. 'Nuff said.
What really confuses me is the idea that 7.62 x 25 Tokarev, loafing along at an average of 1300-ish, should be HOTTER, pressure-wise, and more abusive, slide-velocity-wise, to 100-year-old Broomhandle Mausers who are to STRICTLY stay on a diet of factory 7.63 Mauser that runs a consistent 100-150 fps FASTER.
Given a comparable-weight, comparable configuration bullet with an identical case of comparable capacity, doesn't higher velocity equate to higher pressure?
Doesn't the consistently higher velocity of the round equate to higher slide velocity, and therefore commensurately greater battering/abuse?
Unless there is some drastic difference in the pressure curve of the two calibers due to different powder composition that I am unaware of, I'm sufferring a cognitive dissonance here, as my knowledge of ballistics seems to indicate that keeping 7.62 x 25 Tokarev ammunition out of your Broomhandle Mauser in order to preserve it is exactly BACKWARDS!
Cheap-'n-cruddy Tokarev fails to run my Bolo. It acts like it's not got enough "oomph". Lugers like hot ammo, don't they? They balk with light loads. (I know, a cheap parallel, but Lugers are also a very early self-loading design.)
I freely admit I could have it wrong, and I am open to evidence of my ignorance. But way back in 1995 when I first got my CZ-52, and they were relatively unknown or at least not widely discussed, I did a copious amount of research to find out what made these weird Commie guns tick, and learned the backround and ballistics that I Cliff-noted above. Since that time, I've come across the Internet and found this widely disseminated "truism" that contradicts what I thought I knew.
A little help here?
