I also have more respect for him.. He blamed the MSM which was hysterical in their coverage. He will be beat to death by them now. The holy MSM protected to lie and sell us their propaganda under the 1st amendment are all looking for who will win all the journalistic awards they give to each other.
Brown Bites the Hand That Used to Feed Him
- Thread starter bountyhunter
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Beren
Moderator Emeritus
At first, I bought into the "Brown is an incompetent moron" mindset. After hearing the man talk I consider him a sincere, intelligent, and competent man placed in an impossible situation. It was his Kobayashi Maru. While the written media reports made it sound as though Brown was torched by Congressional representatives, upon listening to the audio I discovered it was Brown who handed the Congressmen their heads.
Master Blaster
Member
First off FEMA has 2500 employees, 80% are involved with the administration of the Federal Flood Insurance program. That is a full time job for them. FEMA is supposed to coordinate the response which includes local officials and resources. FEMA has no power to command the locals to do anything. FEMA can only ASK for their cooperation.
I realize that the most important THING HERE IS TO BLAME BUSH, I have heard the talking heads on the news say as much. After all there are congressional elections coming up.
THE biggest screwup here is being missed and as far as I can tell nothing is being done to fix it.
Remember the old saying that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure??????
The fact that there were 68,000-100,000 people still in New Orleans when the hurricane hit is a huge problem and the most critical gap that allowed this to happen was the lack of a working evacuation two days prior to the storm hitting. The national Guard should have been called in 2 days before the storm, the busses owned by the city of NO and the school boards should have been used to get everyone OUT BEFORE THE STORM HIT.
The 70,000+ folks still in NO were very lucky, had Katrina wobbled another 50 miles to the west, they would have been looking at a 25 foot stormsurge that would have carried 25 miles inland, along with 145 mph sustained winds.
Had this happened as it well could have and as the forcasters were warning most of the 70,000+ people rescued and evacuated after the storm WOULD HAVE BEEN DEAD.
The biggest screw up was the lack of an effective realistic evacuation. NO did have a plan, but the mayor and the Governor did not follow it.
ALL of the Blaming and finger pointing would have done nothing to bring back 70,000 PEOPLE WHO WERE ALREADY DEAD.
THE LEVYS NO MATTER HOW STRONG WE MAKE THEM CANNOT HOLD OUT A 25 FOOT STORM SURGE FROM THE OCEAN.
This needs to be fixed, the feds need the authority and guidlines for ordering and implementing an evacuation before such a storm hits. The FEDS need the authority to override the local government should they move to slowly to evacuate. WE should never have to rescue or bring relief to HUGE NUMBERS OF people after such a storm because they should be evacuated in the first place.
I realize that the most important THING HERE IS TO BLAME BUSH, I have heard the talking heads on the news say as much. After all there are congressional elections coming up.
THE biggest screwup here is being missed and as far as I can tell nothing is being done to fix it.
Remember the old saying that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure??????
The fact that there were 68,000-100,000 people still in New Orleans when the hurricane hit is a huge problem and the most critical gap that allowed this to happen was the lack of a working evacuation two days prior to the storm hitting. The national Guard should have been called in 2 days before the storm, the busses owned by the city of NO and the school boards should have been used to get everyone OUT BEFORE THE STORM HIT.
The 70,000+ folks still in NO were very lucky, had Katrina wobbled another 50 miles to the west, they would have been looking at a 25 foot stormsurge that would have carried 25 miles inland, along with 145 mph sustained winds.
Had this happened as it well could have and as the forcasters were warning most of the 70,000+ people rescued and evacuated after the storm WOULD HAVE BEEN DEAD.
The biggest screw up was the lack of an effective realistic evacuation. NO did have a plan, but the mayor and the Governor did not follow it.
ALL of the Blaming and finger pointing would have done nothing to bring back 70,000 PEOPLE WHO WERE ALREADY DEAD.
THE LEVYS NO MATTER HOW STRONG WE MAKE THEM CANNOT HOLD OUT A 25 FOOT STORM SURGE FROM THE OCEAN.
This needs to be fixed, the feds need the authority and guidlines for ordering and implementing an evacuation before such a storm hits. The FEDS need the authority to override the local government should they move to slowly to evacuate. WE should never have to rescue or bring relief to HUGE NUMBERS OF people after such a storm because they should be evacuated in the first place.
The Dutch had a flood from the sea in 1953 that killed 2000 people. Half their country is below sea level. They built a system of hydraulic sea walls that are 130 ft high and 6 miles long. One dam took over a decade to build. They're built to protect the regions wetlands, which act as a natural buffer from storms. It's basically a giant steel curtain that can be opened or closed, depending on the water level. Down the North Sea coast, there's a giant door that can seal off shipping lanes in an emergency. Each arm is as long as the Eiffel Tower and twice as heavy. A computer is programmed to close the door as soon as the water rises 6 feet. It's quite an engineering feat to see these walls, something worth a visit if you're in the area and have the time to arrange a tour.
I believe a 130 ft. wall would hold up against a 25 ft storm surge. My understanding of the levy system in New Orleans is that they've been developing their wetlands, which in hindsight might not have been a good idea.
I agree with this, but totally disagree with the one below.
Are you serious? I for one don’t want some old man in Washington controlling my state and local laws. Someone once said, “Give me liberty or give me death!”. . . . I believe there was a good reason behind it.
EghtySx
Member
I don't think the Fed had any responsibility at all. In fact, I don't want them to. I don't want the Fed taking over our lives. Of course, we move closer and closer to communism every day so it's only a matter of time I guess.
The people blaming the Fed want communism. They want a big state tit to suck on and take responsibility for them. What is this? Laziness? Ignorance? Years of conditioning by liberal leaders?
Those people had plenty of warning to get out. Maybe all they lacked was someone to come to their houses and take them by the hand and lead them out. Is that what they want? I sure don't. I am a grown man capable of making my own decisions and living with the consequences of my actions. Who are these people complaining about not being taken care of?
The people blaming the Fed want communism. They want a big state tit to suck on and take responsibility for them. What is this? Laziness? Ignorance? Years of conditioning by liberal leaders?
Those people had plenty of warning to get out. Maybe all they lacked was someone to come to their houses and take them by the hand and lead them out. Is that what they want? I sure don't. I am a grown man capable of making my own decisions and living with the consequences of my actions. Who are these people complaining about not being taken care of?
Sleeping Dog
Member
Brown's situation is sort of like Lynndie England's.
Certainly at fault, but not the only one, not the highest rank, but one of the few to actually be punished for it.
Could anyone else have prevented the flooding, looting, desertions, etc? Probably not. Giuliani (sp?) had a different situation. Two buildings destroyed. As compared to three states.
Certainly at fault, but not the only one, not the highest rank, but one of the few to actually be punished for it.
Could anyone else have prevented the flooding, looting, desertions, etc? Probably not. Giuliani (sp?) had a different situation. Two buildings destroyed. As compared to three states.
My compliments to Tulsamal for understanding the nature of government agencies.
"If the political appointee keels over with a heart attack one day and a hurrican shows up the next, they should still work with 100% efficiency. Actually, the employees in most Agencies/Departments consider the director to be somewhat irrelevant in the day to day work of their agency." Absolutely correct Tulsamal! While the political appointee is more than a figurehead they are not the operational head involved in micromanaging a government agency numbering in the thousands.
"He's the guy at the top that tries to reform the system in line with the President's ideas but he is NOT the person who makes all the decisions on how they should do their jobs!" I agree, but he is the guy that takes that ideology and reflects it in the way the agency budget gets distributed. If FEMA is seconded to Homeland Defense and their basic role is changed and budget reflects this then he's the guy carrying out that conversion of role and distribution of resources. Of course this is at the direction of his bosses, the President and head of Homeland Defense.
"IF Brown really WAS "the biggest boob in the world," the thousands of FEMA employees should have STILL followed all their procedures and guidelines. Did they? If they did but we don't like the outcome, then we should change those procedures and guidelines. If they didn't, they it is their fault, not Brown's. If he stayed home 24 hours a day and played video games, why didn't the career FEMA people perform the way we would prefer?" Absolutely correct! Unless Brown stepped in and tried to "manage" the disaster response real time instead of leaving it to the people who had the responsibility/authority/experience it would be appropriate to attack him personally.
Attacking his agency is the appropriate course of action not him. That just distracts from the real causes of the problems. We should be trying to find out whether the agency was under funded overall or just in this area, lacked good experienced personnel due to the seconding of the agency to Homeland Defense, had too many of it's resources pulled into other priorities/roles by changes dictated from above, was undermined by the philosophy that transferred control and resources for major disasters to local/state government, or was just overwhelmed by the size of the disaster that no single agency could have handled.
Instead I'm afraid that we're going to see Brown used as the scape goat for failures within the entire system from the city on up and the current inquiry is a gladatorial event to distract the masses while shielding the responsible parties.
My personal opinion is that blame rightfully belongs at the doorstep of the city and state govenment and the President/Homeland Defense head for the federal shift in fiscal philosophy and preoccupation with terrorism.
"If the political appointee keels over with a heart attack one day and a hurrican shows up the next, they should still work with 100% efficiency. Actually, the employees in most Agencies/Departments consider the director to be somewhat irrelevant in the day to day work of their agency." Absolutely correct Tulsamal! While the political appointee is more than a figurehead they are not the operational head involved in micromanaging a government agency numbering in the thousands.
"He's the guy at the top that tries to reform the system in line with the President's ideas but he is NOT the person who makes all the decisions on how they should do their jobs!" I agree, but he is the guy that takes that ideology and reflects it in the way the agency budget gets distributed. If FEMA is seconded to Homeland Defense and their basic role is changed and budget reflects this then he's the guy carrying out that conversion of role and distribution of resources. Of course this is at the direction of his bosses, the President and head of Homeland Defense.
"IF Brown really WAS "the biggest boob in the world," the thousands of FEMA employees should have STILL followed all their procedures and guidelines. Did they? If they did but we don't like the outcome, then we should change those procedures and guidelines. If they didn't, they it is their fault, not Brown's. If he stayed home 24 hours a day and played video games, why didn't the career FEMA people perform the way we would prefer?" Absolutely correct! Unless Brown stepped in and tried to "manage" the disaster response real time instead of leaving it to the people who had the responsibility/authority/experience it would be appropriate to attack him personally.
Attacking his agency is the appropriate course of action not him. That just distracts from the real causes of the problems. We should be trying to find out whether the agency was under funded overall or just in this area, lacked good experienced personnel due to the seconding of the agency to Homeland Defense, had too many of it's resources pulled into other priorities/roles by changes dictated from above, was undermined by the philosophy that transferred control and resources for major disasters to local/state government, or was just overwhelmed by the size of the disaster that no single agency could have handled.
Instead I'm afraid that we're going to see Brown used as the scape goat for failures within the entire system from the city on up and the current inquiry is a gladatorial event to distract the masses while shielding the responsible parties.
My personal opinion is that blame rightfully belongs at the doorstep of the city and state govenment and the President/Homeland Defense head for the federal shift in fiscal philosophy and preoccupation with terrorism.
Master Blaster
Member
I agree, I dont want the FEDS to tell me what to do, but unfortunately in New Orleans anyway, there are folks who are/were relying on the feds to do just that. FEMA does not have the authority the locals do, but the facts are that they did not order and implement an evacuation, and it appears that they are not capable of doing so. So there needs to be some mechanism to ensure that this problem does not crop up the next time, because our luck may not be as good.
As far as the Levies go they were designed to protect NO from flooding caused by the Mississippi river, and by Lake Ponchertrain. Flooding from rainwater runnoff. The levies do not protect NO from the SEA, NO has no protection from a large storm surge from the sea. The News folks seem to have missed that fact, and I have heard several discussing a storm surge on the lake which did happen, interchangeably with a storm surge from the sea, which thankfully did not happen, as though they were the same thing.
As far as the Levies go they were designed to protect NO from flooding caused by the Mississippi river, and by Lake Ponchertrain. Flooding from rainwater runnoff. The levies do not protect NO from the SEA, NO has no protection from a large storm surge from the sea. The News folks seem to have missed that fact, and I have heard several discussing a storm surge on the lake which did happen, interchangeably with a storm surge from the sea, which thankfully did not happen, as though they were the same thing.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Actually 500 buses at 50 people a bus would be 25,000 people.
But he should have started the evacuation BEFORE the hurricane. Had he done so, he would have had three days befor the storm surge. At four round trips a day, that's 300,000 people -- or about twice the number that needed transportation to get out of the city.
There's a pair of pictures circulating on the internet -- one shows hundreds of drowned school buses in New Orleans. The other shows a long column of school buses crammed with people leaving Galveston.
Carl N. Brown
Member
Outside of N.O. and LA
Why do we not hear of FEMA problems in Mississippi and Alabama,
only New Orleans and Lousiana? Katrina hit Biloxi-Gulfport, not
New Orleans. The difference I see: Nagin (N.O.) and Blanco (LA).
Nagin has the mentality of a welfare recipient: instead of
doing something himself he waited for someone else to do
for him and b!tched because it was too late.
Why don't we hear of an objective analysis of response to
previous hurricanes approaching the scale of Katrina-Rita?
How did mayors and governors in other cities and states
respond? All we will hear is Dems Repubs and Media
blathering and pointing fingers.
Why do we not hear of FEMA problems in Mississippi and Alabama,
only New Orleans and Lousiana? Katrina hit Biloxi-Gulfport, not
New Orleans. The difference I see: Nagin (N.O.) and Blanco (LA).
Nagin has the mentality of a welfare recipient: instead of
doing something himself he waited for someone else to do
for him and b!tched because it was too late.
Why don't we hear of an objective analysis of response to
previous hurricanes approaching the scale of Katrina-Rita?
How did mayors and governors in other cities and states
respond? All we will hear is Dems Repubs and Media
blathering and pointing fingers.
shermacman
Member
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2002
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- 1,751
A lot of you have parroted the LameStreamMedia Op-Ed pages. Brown did a great job with last year's hurricanes in Florida. The New Orleans' mess started with the corrupt local city officials who failed miserably. Then the deer-in-the-headlights Governor Blanco who did what a Democrat has to do, blame Bush. By the time FEMA got there, the disaster was in full swing.
That is not Brown's fault, nor is it FEMA's responsibility. FEMA is not and never has been a law enforcement agency, nor is it a First Responder. That should have been the local and state governments' role.
That is not Brown's fault, nor is it FEMA's responsibility. FEMA is not and never has been a law enforcement agency, nor is it a First Responder. That should have been the local and state governments' role.
Silver Bullet
Member
FL: Jeb Bush (R)
AL: Bob Riley (R)
TX: Rick Perry (R)
LA: Kathleen Blanco (D)
MS: Haley Barbour (R)
Your right, part of the problem is too many people depend on the Federal Government when they should be relying on self-reliance, (including) maintaining self-efficient state and local governments.
So states no longer have the right to make mistakes without costing them their “sovereignty” (term used loosely). So when Bush makes a mistake its ok for England to assume power?
Now if the people of Louisiana want to become a welfare state and delegate their state powers to the Federal Government then it’s none of my business (as long as it doesn’t cost me Fed. tax dollars). I don’t live in Louisiana, however I don’t want their incompetence shredding my state rights. Sorry for being so hard, but the people have a right to govern themselves.
Camp David
member
Too late!NCP24 said:
Old Dog
Member
I saw the rehash on C-Span last night ... Rep. Gene Taylor (D-Miss.) attacking Brown ... "Wouldn't it have been prudent, Mr. Brown, to have provided all the residents of New Orleans, since the events started on the 28th of the month and all the residents were all on fixed incomes and couldn't afford to fill their gas tanks one last time, with 5 gallons of gas so they could have gotten out of town?" (paraphrased)
Brown's response was good, "No, Congressman, the federal government is not in the business of giving 5 gallons of gas to citizens for evacuating hurricanes ..."
What I saw on C-Span was that a number of our Democrat reps believe that the federal government should be in the business of "Federal Emergency Preparation and Disaster Prevention." Idiots. Socialists. Arghh! The stupidity of our elected representatives again on display for all to bear witness ... If I were a resident of Taylor's district, I'd be cringing in embarassment ...
Brown's response was good, "No, Congressman, the federal government is not in the business of giving 5 gallons of gas to citizens for evacuating hurricanes ..."
What I saw on C-Span was that a number of our Democrat reps believe that the federal government should be in the business of "Federal Emergency Preparation and Disaster Prevention." Idiots. Socialists. Arghh! The stupidity of our elected representatives again on display for all to bear witness ... If I were a resident of Taylor's district, I'd be cringing in embarassment ...
It appears he's already got a job. Keith Olbermann has penned the following:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240/
And, that's when it was revealed that FEMA had apparently rehired a former employee as a consultant. You might recognize his name, too — Mike Brown.
At a meeting with staff of the special House committee looking into Katrina preparations today, the disgraced and displaced former FEMA director said he had rejoined the agency as a consultant to "provide a review" of how the agency functioned before, during, and after the storm. This according to two congressional sources.
A congressional aide told NBC News nobody's sure — but it is assumed Brown is being paid by FEMA.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Or, "I would have been willing to do that, Congressman. Who was going to go door to door and deliver those gas cans? Certainly not the Democratic Mayor of New Orleans!! He couldn't even be relied upon to muster the school buses to get people out of the city."
Mongo the Mutterer
Member
Carl N. Brown:
+1
Does anyone out there remember that there were FOUR hurricanes in Florida last year?
+1
Does anyone out there remember that there were FOUR hurricanes in Florida last year?
Ignorance alloyed with Indignation
Ignorance alloyed with indignation and irrational hatred can be made into armor impossible to penetrate with mere fact.
All you Don Quixotes are tiliting with windmills when you try to introduce fact into the debate. Folks with BH's mindset will not allow themselves to be swayed by facts or a superior understanding of logistical undertakings (gained trhough experience & actually having BTDT).
Ignorance alloyed with indignation and irrational hatred can be made into armor impossible to penetrate with mere fact.
All you Don Quixotes are tiliting with windmills when you try to introduce fact into the debate. Folks with BH's mindset will not allow themselves to be swayed by facts or a superior understanding of logistical undertakings (gained trhough experience & actually having BTDT).
bountyhunter
member
I guess it would be the same force of people who (according to Bush supporters) should have gone door to door and dragged all the reluctant people out of their houses and thrown them onto buses to make sure there was no one left in the city to NEED help from FEMA.
bountyhunter
member
Yeah, I guess our tiny little minds can never comprehend such complex subjects.... but I know one thing: nothing gets done when people have to all sit around on their asses waiting for somebody to issue orders to let them go do it.
But, like you say..... such complex issues are just beyond the comprehension of mere rabble.....
BTW: read the other post I just put up if you think FEMA did such a great job with Katrina.... if city managers in the president's home state can't get service?
bountyhunter
member
Gee.... you mean outside of NO like in Port Arthur or Beaumont Texas?
Many Rita Victims Still Wait for Relief
By ABE LEVY
PORT ARTHUR, Texas (AP) - Nearly four days after Hurricane Rita hit, many of the storm's sweltering victims are still waiting for electricity, gasoline, water and other relief. The situation prompted one top emergency official to complain that people are ``living like cavemen.''
///Nederland City Manager Andre Wimer said ``it's been a terribly frustrating four days'' because of problems getting help from the Federal Emergency Management Agency.
``I can appreciate the difficulty in responding to a disaster that was this widespread but at the same time we certainly feel we've not received a level of service that was satisfactory,'' he said.
http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/st...108&ewp=ewp_news_0905rita_waiting&floc=NW_1-T
I guess this is just another fool who lacks:
and
There seem to be a lot of us these days..... of course, I suppose his problem is that when people have to poop in the back yard, it tends to make them grumpy.
Vern Humphrey
Member
What buses? They were all left in the parking lot and drowned!
Why do I get the impression we're dealing with a Trojan Horse here -- a liberal attempting to stir up anti-Bush sentiment among gun ownders so more liberal Democrats will be elected and get the gun-confiscation agenda back on track?
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