Brushing lube into rifle necks

GW Staar said:
Friction is still friction....everybody knows there's more force needed to start a body at rest than keeping it moving, unless there is no friction. But most reading this thread aren't scientists or engineers, and probably don't care about the coefficent, static, or friction in motion. I do know that the friction needed to hold a bullet where it needs to be in a stretched case when chambered, is way less than that required to turn cartridge into a bomb.....thankfully. ;)
Click to expand...
Inertia is a killer. Overcoming inertia requires huge energy and once inertia (combined with friction) lets go, then things really start moving.
 
It does take more energy to get something moving than to keep it moving, but since it’s all over when the bullet leaves the barrel, it’s not overly relevant to this, but we still have to get an object started, although for the energy involved it’s minor.
 
Walkalong said:
It does take more energy to get something moving than to keep it moving, but since it’s all over when the bullet leaves the barrel, it’s not overly relevant to this, but we still have to get an object started, although for the energy involved it’s minor.
Click to expand...
It’s maybe a good way of explaining to new reloaders why lead, plated and jacketed bullets of the same weight and profile will have different starting loads.

If consistency is a concern for accuracy then eliminating random variations might be important. Friction tends to be a random force and overcoming inertia tends require variable energies. Reducing friction (or stiction, if preferred) and reducing the variability of required energies to overcome inertia might be relevant if consistency is a goal. JMO YMMV.
 
Last edited:
GeoDudeFlorida said:
Friction tends to be a random force and overcoming inertia tends require variable energies.
Click to expand...

I thought you were joking the first time: Neither of these claims is even remotely true in the context of lubing or not lubing case necks. But ESPECIALLY not the latter - inertia for a static body (not moving) such as a bullet which is waiting to be fired is NEVER variable. Inertia is a property of matter, and when not moving, is simply its mass, and unless the gravitational field is changing (which within the context of this application, it isn’t), then inertia doesn’t change.
 
AJC1 said:
Wet tumbling is all the rage, and I did listen as the old br guys grumbled about stupid clean cases have no good carbon in them. I guess the modern work around is to now brush a lubricant into the neck prior to seating the bullet. We seem to be coming full circle and relearning what we already knew. Some channels on the tube are showing testing on the improvements of the new method. Anyone seen a test with clean, carbon, and neck lube. I will always wet tumble range pickups to allow for best inspection, but I'm considering running a set dirty just for testing.....
Click to expand...
Those old BR guys might know a thing or two.
 
Walkalong said:
It does take more energy to get something moving than to keep it moving, but since it’s all over when the bullet leaves the barrel, it’s not overly relevant to this, but we still have to get an object started, although for the energy involved it’s minor.
Click to expand...
Seating force beyond dimensional difference of bullet hold attributed to friction doesn’t seem to apply after ignition and the necks open up to release the bullet. Will seating friction show on the target in your experience ?
 
And that’s where bullet hold imo separates itself from friction, I can manipulate and recreate hold with different size bushings but friction is something I try and tame and some guys monitor with hydro seaters and pressure gages attached to a press.
 
Last edited:
South Prairie Jim said:
I was told recently and interesting to note that there are only a couple hundred LRBR shooters that “play the game” there are many more SRBR, F class and PRS shooters.
Click to expand...
I was told back in the early 80’s when I was considering doing more than playing with accuracy that LRBR shooting was a rich-man’s sport and blue collar wages would not pay the bills. The guys who told me that weren’t being mean or trying to discourage me - it was a legitimate and very much appreciated warning about the kind of time and hardware investment I was considering.

I don’t think the topic is really getting much of a fair shake, though. The concern is whether or not wet cleaning - with various detergents, acids, and additives, et al - results in cases that are “too clean” and need to be lubricated - have some “good carbon” brushed into the necks - to allow for proper (better? more accurate? more...???) seating. Setting aside whether or not a friction fit actually involves friction for the moment, think about the question: Is wet cleaning actually making cases too clean? Or, is it introducing a new form of “dirt” which causes seating to be/seem problematic? Wet tumbling leaves surfactants behind: phosphates, calcium, potassium, carbon, and it’s possible citric acid etches and pits the brass at a micro level. Those surfactants (mostly detergent and dissolved calcium, I’d imagine) may not be visible but they are there, nonetheless. Are these “flaws” that have to be considered and it is possible they create the impression that seating is not as good as with good old fashioned smudgy carbon?

I think experimenting carefully with non-reactive lubricants like graphite, bees wax or mineral oil is perfectly fine but I would avoid reactive agents like paraffin or sizing wax. I don’t think the idea is to relax the fit of the bulllet to the bore but to ease the seating a bit to prevent collapsed necks and uneven tension. At least, that’s how I read it.
 
Competing at the highest level in shooting sports or any sport can be a financial commitment IF you allow it to be. Myself being poor, find comfort in being a minimalist and try to stay focused on the prep, tune and beating the conditions. I know guys that like clean brass and have to use lube while others simply leave the carbon in the necks and brush lightly. I don’t think there is a right or wrong except to do nothing.
 
Varminterror said:
I thought you were joking the first time: Neither of these claims is even remotely true in the context of lubing or not lubing case necks. But ESPECIALLY not the latter - inertia for a static body (not moving) such as a bullet which is waiting to be fired is NEVER variable. Inertia is a property of matter, and when not moving, is simply its mass, and unless the gravitational field is changing (which within the context of this application, it isn’t), then inertia doesn’t change.
Click to expand...
The topic is seating. Try to keep up.
 
GeoDudeFlorida said:
The topic is seating. Try to keep up.
Click to expand...

Please don’t tell anyone again that inertia of a bullet at rest will ever be variable, and nobody will have to correct the bad science you’re promoting.

If you want to pretend you meant to describe bullets in motion - bullet seating, can you describe the critical dependence of bullet seating on “overcoming inertia” and how that relationship is extremely variable, as you promoted above? You can’t, because it’s junk pseudoscience. Equally, even saying “overcoming inertia” to accelerate the bullet is variable, or pretending that inertia somehow “let’s go” is absolutely ridiculous. Just concede, you’re making uneducated speculations which simply miss the mark, because it’s misleading for folks which can’t tell the difference.

You’ve promoted further misrepresented pseudoscience in your last - it is well proven that wet tumbling brass, at least doing so properly, leaves brass “too clean,” with no remaining lubrication. The blathering about residual surfactants dried in the neck isn’t applicable, since RINSING BRASS is a step of the process. I’m sure some fool out there dumps his brass straight out to dry, but anyone with any sense rinses their brass after tumbling - and we can’t remotely pretend this would leave a more influential residue in the neck than dry tumbling or leaving fired cases raw.

You’re promoting speculative bad science which is disproven by decades of shooters and proven science. Again, I assume you’re trolling.
 
South Prairie Jim said:
I know guys that like clean brass and have to use lube while others simply leave the carbon in the necks and brush lightly. I don’t think there is a right or wrong except to do nothing.
Click to expand...

This is really the best answer to the problem as the crux of the matter.

If a shooter wants uniform bullet hold, as a lead measure for uniform primary ignition, consistent across their ammo, they should be doing SOMETHING to their necks to make the neck surfaces uniform and consistent.

Varminterror said:
Doing almost ANYTHING to the necks will cause more uniformity than the arbitrary and random powder residual left from firing. Dry tumbling, spraying, brushing, whatever
Click to expand...
 
Here you go.

Bottom Line: it seems to make a difference

Sporterized 03A3, 30-06, 169 SMKs, 57gn IMR4350, RP brass, Federal 210 primers

10 rounds each, trickled to the kernal (+/- 0.03gn). I used Imperial dry lube on the necks with.

4FCBA9FA-134C-4CE8-A38A-BF861C82DBC9.jpeg

Without lube

72925172-4DF1-463B-A802-9C59413667DE.jpeg

With Lube

671BC75C-02EE-4776-ADD3-C1AC921B7F63.jpeg
 
Last edited:
Nature Boy said:
Here you go.

Bottom Line: it seems to make a difference

Sporterized 03A3, 30-06, 169 SMKs, 47gn IMR4350, RP brass, Federal 210 primers

10 rounds each, trickled to the kernal (+/- 0.03gn). I used Imperial dry lube on the necks with.

View attachment 1147183

Without lube

View attachment 1147182

With Lube

View attachment 1147185
Click to expand...
Question: when you were putting them together did you notice any difference in the feel of the press or how the bullets seated? Curious is there was maybe some clue in the feel of the handle.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

G
  • Locked
Lubing inside neck of rifle brass for resizing
2
Replies
25
Views
11K
saitek
S
B
  • Locked
How I Clean MY AR-15
Replies
13
Views
3K
Sleeping Dog
S
LiveLife
  • Locked
What works for you?
Replies
4
Views
457
1SOW
1
S
  • Locked
Longevity of .308 cases (link to Jouster thread)
Replies
4
Views
1K
Fatelvis
Fatelvis
Trent
  • Locked
Accurate Rifle Ammo
Replies
6
Views
653
gamestalker
G
Back
Top