Buffalo Bore 150 Grain Wadcutters & S&W Vintage 640 Centennial Compatible?

[Mikey5oh]

Do you think an older model S&W 640 Centennial made in 1991 can handle Standard Pressure Short Barrel Low Flash Heavy .38 Special Pistol & Handgun Ammunition without any problems being that they make all of their ammo very hot?

 

[horsemen61]

Do you think an older model S&W 640 Centennial made in 1991 can handle Standard Pressure Short Barrel Low Flash Heavy .38 Special Pistol & Handgun Ammunition without any problems being that they make all of their ammo very hot?

well.....

it does say standard pressure so that’s a good start I’d shoot them an email and see what they say


I got this straight from your link to their site

Due to customer demand, we've developed this defensive 38 SPL ammo. Our customers wanted some devastating 38 SPL loads that would fill the following criteria.

1. It won't hurt older/fragile/alloy revolvers. (Non +P)
2. Is effective as a "fight stopper" through the use of proper bullets.
3. Is more powerful than typical/standard, weak 38SPL ammo.
4. Generate much less recoil than our +P 38SPL ammo.
5. Is flash suppressed.

Buffalo Bore is introducing these three different heavy, yet standard pressure loadings for 38 SPL. These offerings are loaded at standard pressure, but they are much more powerful than normal 38 SPL ammo. These loads will not harm older more fragile revolvers. So, these loads are safe for use in ANY 38 SPL revolver, provided it is in normal working condition. As stated above, the "POWER" level of these loads is really closer to a typical +P power level, but the pressure is standard. We are able to develop these powerful standard pressure loads with modern non-canister powders. Again, these loads recoil far less than our +P 38 SPL ammo

 

[Monster Zero]

These are what I load in my SP101.

Get ready for a handful, +p or not.

 

[Mikey5oh]

well.....

it does say standard pressure so that’s a good start I’d shoot them an email and see what they say


I got this straight from your link to their site

Due to customer demand, we've developed this defensive 38 SPL ammo. Our customers wanted some devastating 38 SPL loads that would fill the following criteria.

1. It won't hurt older/fragile/alloy revolvers. (Non +P)
2. Is effective as a "fight stopper" through the use of proper bullets.
3. Is more powerful than typical/standard, weak 38SPL ammo.
4. Generate much less recoil than our +P 38SPL ammo.
5. Is flash suppressed.

Buffalo Bore is introducing these three different heavy, yet standard pressure loadings for 38 SPL. These offerings are loaded at standard pressure, but they are much more powerful than normal 38 SPL ammo. These loads will not harm older more fragile revolvers. So, these loads are safe for use in ANY 38 SPL revolver, provided it is in normal working condition. As stated above, the "POWER" level of these loads is really closer to a typical +P power level, but the pressure is standard. We are able to develop these powerful standard pressure loads with modern non-canister powders. Again, these loads recoil far less than our +P 38 SPL ammo

Thanks for your reply. Yes I know what their website says but I also hear people saying otherwise including Smith & Wesson.

 

[Mikey5oh]

These are what I load in my SP101.

Get ready for a handful, +p or not.

The SP101 which I also have is +P rated. The 640 isn’t.

 

[horsemen61]

Thanks for your reply. Yes I know what their website says but I also hear people saying otherwise including Smith & Wesson.

If Smith&Wesson don’t recommend it then I wouldn’t either it’s that simple

 

[LUCKYDAWG13]

 

[ThomasT]

OP I have linked this before but since you are new I doubt you have seen it. In this article it points out that +P is pretty much what 38 Special started out being loaded to before it was reduced in power sometime in the 1970s. What it is telling you is that if your gun is rated for real 38 special ammo it should not have any trouble handling the "new" +P ammo. The 38 Special did not start out as a weak round. It was designed to be a real step up in power over the 38 Long Colt it was meant to replace. Now "38 Special" is loaded to the same specs as the old 38 long colt round.

http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.com/2009/01/p-phenomenon-by-saxonpig.html

If you look at the original specs the 38 Special was loaded to 900fps when it came out. Almost exactly what the new +P ammo is loaded to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Special

 

[Stophel]

Yes, the gun will handle it EASILY. It will not blow up. The shooter, on the other hand, might find it rather unpleasant to shoot. It's not "+P", but still pretty stout, and J frame handles are pretty d..n small. I had to finally fit a pair of Taurus wraparound grips to my Chief's Special (older than yours ) . They fill up behind the backstrap so it doesn't pop the web of my hand so hard.

S&W (like all gun manufacturers) is TERRIFIED of lawsuits. They would recommend shooting nothing but 725fps popgun loads if they thought they could get away with it.

 

[Stophel]

Oh, yes. Doubletap has a wadcutter load that is clocked at 700 some odd fps out of a 2" gun, which I think would be about ideal. Faster than ordinary S L O W wadcutters, and not as painful to shoot as a wadcutter going 850 fps. I haven't tried any of them yet, though.

 

[tipoc]

Thanks for your reply. Yes I know what their website says but I also hear people saying otherwise including Smith & Wesson.

Where did you read that S&W do not recommend standard pressure ammo? Or that they do not recommend this particular ammo?

 

[Dave T]

Agree with ThomasT on every point, with a nod to SaxonPig too. Been agreeing with him on this subject for several years now.

Dave

 

[ThomasT]

The OP seems worried that Smith&Wesson would build a 38 Special that will not handle 38 Smith&Wesson Special ammo. After all they invented the round why would they build guns that can’t handle the real 38 ammo?

 

[Monster Zero]

The SP101 which I also have is +P rated. The 640 isn’t.

That's not my point.

What I meant to say was, even though those BB wadcutters are not +p rated, get ready. They aren't light loads at all, in fact the recoil from them in my 642 is close to injurious, frankly, if one shoots a full cylinder. BB selling them as standard loads is a misnomer in that case.

However in an SP they're quite shootable. My wife likes them in the SP. Whether you shoot them in your 640 is your choice.

Frankly I would try them in a real steel J frame with the right grips, but I'll never load them in my 642 again. Almost broke my thumb...

 

[Mikey5oh]

Thank you for the info. That article was very interesting.

 

[Mikey5oh]

The OP seems worried that Smith&Wesson would build a 38 Special that will not handle 38 Smith&Wesson Special ammo. After all they invented the round why would they build guns that can’t handle the real 38 ammo?

I was told by someone at S&W customer service to stay away from Buffalo Bore and Underwood because their ammo is too hot and does not load within SAAMI specs.

 

[Mikey5oh]

That's not my point.

What I meant to say was, even though those BB wadcutters are not +p rated, get ready. They aren't light loads at all, in fact the recoil from them in my 642 is close to injurious, frankly, if one shoots a full cylinder. BB selling them as standard loads is a misnomer in that case.

However in an SP they're quite shootable. My wife likes them in the SP. Whether you shoot them in your 640 is your choice.

Frankly I would try them in a real steel J frame with the right grips, but I'll never load them in my 642 again. Almost broke my thumb...

Thanks, that’s what I’ve been hearing.. BB is a hot round. That’s my concern. Not so much the recoil but the gun itself. S&W doesn’t recommend shooting +P ammo from any J-Frame firearm made prior to 1998. As for the 642, I’d be afraid of damaging the frame because it’s aluminum.

 

[Mikey5oh]

OP I have linked this before but since you are new I doubt you have seen it. In this article it points out that +P is pretty much what 38 Special started out being loaded to before it was reduced in power sometime in the 1970s. What it is telling you is that if your gun is rated for real 38 special ammo it should not have any trouble handling the "new" +P ammo. The 38 Special did not start out as a weak round. It was designed to be a real step up in power over the 38 Long Colt it was meant to replace. Now "38 Special" is loaded to the same specs as the old 38 long colt round.

http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.com/2009/01/p-phenomenon-by-saxonpig.html

If you look at the original specs the 38 Special was loaded to 900fps when it came out. Almost exactly what the new +P ammo is loaded to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Special

Thank you for that information. Very interesting article.

 

[Gary A]

I find myself in the curious position of both agreeing and disagreeing with MikeySoh. I have long read the online debates on the use of +P in older ‘pre-magnumized” versions of Airweights such as 442/642s and the 37-2 DAO snubbies that we’re released a number of years ago and I always argue along the lines of MikeySoh in opting on the side of caution. However, I have an older 640, 38 only. I’m unsure right now when it was built but it is not marked +P and not marked “tested for +P+” as some were. However, articles written at the time, notably by Massad Ayoob, convinced me those revolvers are more than capable of handling +P. Ayoob made a very convincing case, quoting Smith and Wesson engineers of the time. I’ve shot little plus P from mine but wouldn’t hesitate doing so. Still, I understand and agree with MikeySoh with being conservative with a personal and irreplaceable firearm. It’s easy to tell someone else what to shoot in his gun. I baby my 37-2s (irreplaceable) but not my 642-1. Different when there is skin in the game.

 

[Mikey5oh]

I find myself in the curious position of both agreeing and disagreeing with MikeySoh. I have long read the online debates on the use of +P in older ‘pre-magnumized” versions of Airweights such as 442/642s and the 37-2 DAO snubbies that we’re released a number of years ago and I always argue along the lines of MikeySoh in opting on the side of caution. However, I have an older 640, 38 only. I’m unsure right now when it was built but it is not marked +P and not marked “tested for +P+” as some were. However, articles written at the time, notably by Massad Ayoob, convinced me those revolvers are more than capable of handling +P. Ayoob made a very convincing case, quoting Smith and Wesson engineers of the time. I’ve shot little plus P from mine but wouldn’t hesitate doing so. Still, I understand and agree with MikeySoh with being conservative with a personal and irreplaceable firearm. It’s easy to tell someone else what to shoot in his gun. I baby my 37-2s (irreplaceable) but not my 642-1. Different when there is skin in the game.

Thanks Gary. I appreciate your feedback. I too found an article that someone forwarded me on this thread extremely interesting. I bought my 640 in 1991. I was recently informed by S&W not to shoot +P Ammo thru anny J-Frame firearm made prior to 1998 because they are not rated for +P. Anything after 1998 is rated for +P.

 

[Pat Riot]

Thanks Gary. I appreciate your feedback. I too found an article that someone forwarded me on this thread extremely interesting. I bought my 640 in 1991. I was recently informed by S&W not to shoot +P Ammo thru anny J-Frame firearm made prior to 1998 because they are not rated for +P. Anything after 1998 is rated for +P.

I really would question S&W again. I have a 442-1 that I bought in 1997 that is +P rated.

I have heard time and time again that all “numbered” S&W revolvers made after 1957 will handle “+P” loads. I wish I could find the old article from interview with an S&W rep that says that but I cannot find it.

I would ask to speak with a gun tech or someone in engineering at S&W regarding this. I think the person you talked to at S&W is full of it.

 

[Mikey5oh]

OP I have linked this before but since you are new I doubt you have seen it. In this article it points out that +P is pretty much what 38 Special started out being loaded to before it was reduced in power sometime in the 1970s. What it is telling you is that if your gun is rated for real 38 special ammo it should not have any trouble handling the "new" +P ammo. The 38 Special did not start out as a weak round. It was designed to be a real step up in power over the 38 Long Colt it was meant to replace. Now "38 Special" is loaded to the same specs as the old 38 long colt round.

http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.com/2009/01/p-phenomenon-by-saxonpig.html

If you look at the original specs the 38 Special was loaded to 900fps when it came out. Almost exactly what the new +P ammo is loaded to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Special

Thank you Thomas for the article. It was very informative.

 

[MaxP]

I was told by someone at S&W customer service to stay away from Buffalo Bore and Underwood because their ammo is too hot and does not load within SAAMI specs.

He loads to SAAMI specs unless designated otherwise.

 

[Jim Watson]

Also consider the old habit of reporting velocity from long straight barrels instead of revolvers or 4" vented test barrels.
You could feel real manly with a Hodgdon book load of a 158 SWC at or near 1000 fps. Until you notice the 7.7" test barrel.
Then there is the modern habit of insisting on jacketed bullets in everything. At black powder era pressures, that is going to cost you a hundred fps versus a good cast bullet.

 

[MaxP]

Also consider the old habit of reporting velocity from long straight barrels instead of revolvers or 4" vented test barrels.
You could feel real manly with a Hodgdon book load of a 158 SWC at or near 1000 fps. Until you notice the 7.7" test barrel.
Then there is the modern habit of insisting on jacketed bullets in everything. At black powder era pressures, that is going to cost you a hundred fps versus a good cast bullet.

Buffalo Bore tests from real revolvers and not test barrels.