Buffalo Bore should market LE specific rounds.

[Palladan44]

Buffalo Bore ammo should pay attention to this and consider marketing a "Blue Box" ammo with a silver badge on it.

-Brand new hand inspected brass, resized to minimum specs using a Small base die for clean feeding in all MSRs. Hand trimmed, chamfered and deburred. Uniformed flash holes.

-Bonded 62gr SPBT for clean feeding in MSRs Excellent intermediate barrier penetration, excellent weight retention and excellent expansion in soft targets. 1 MOA accuracy in most all 1:7 to 1:9 twist barrels. OAL optimal for MSR magazines.
- Nickel Plated brass for clean feeding, and high resistance to corrosion in harsh environments.
-Xtreme extruded stick smokeless powder used for most consistent performance in varying temperatures. Charges are guaranteed to the 1/10 of a grain. Also one of the highest velocity 62gr .223 rounds on the market. Powder contains flash suppressant. These are optimized for carbine length barrels (16")
-Arsenal grade primers used for hotter more reliable ignition, and harder cup material to mitigate possibility of slamfire when chambering.
-Light ring crimp into cannelure to prevent possibility of bullet setback.
-Sealed primer and neck to mitigate possibility of contamination by oil or other moisture.
- Rounds are hand inspected in a case gauge and hand boxed by one of our technicians.
-Unmatched Lot to Lot consistency.

Anything else, or would this cover it?

 

[Hartkopf]

Sounds good. But sell it to anyone who can legally buy it.

 

[westernrover]

Looks like Speer. I believe their Gold Dot cartridges have a substantial share of the market for 5.56/223 ammo for LE. Since LE buys 9mm overwhelmingly, they're probably best off with a single-source contract and Vista's Federal and Speer LE division has that market nearly cornered. Olin makes some LE sales under the Winchester brand, but Buffalo Bore? What does it have to do with Buffalo Bore?

 

[Chief TC]

Buffalo Bore is good stuff but Tim Sundles is too full of himself and his products to take any advice.

 

[Anchorite]

That 62gr Gold Dot is an amazing bullet.

 

[Obturation]

I get the point. I could make it but then I made it.

 

[Palladan44]

That 62gr Gold Dot is an amazing bullet.

So, these pictured are my handloads. I used Speer Brass and Federal Fusion projectiles. Loaded with Benchmark.
I just wanted to make the best round I could make, and thought I'd share it.
If I were a boutique Ammo manufacturer, (which I'm not) I'd try and market some top quality "life saving" ammunition to one's who need it most. To compete with Fed/Speer and possibly Hornady.
If not BB, possibly Underwood could do it. I'd put my sales team out there and try to win over one contract at a time.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

So, these pictured are my handloads. I used Speer Brass and Federal Fusion projectiles. Loaded with Benchmark.
I just wanted to make the best round I could make, and thought I'd share it.
If I were a boutique Ammo manufacturer, (which I'm not) I'd try and market some top quality "life saving" ammunition to one's who need it most. To compete with Fed/Speer and possibly Hornady.
If not BB, possibly Underwood could do it. I'd put my sales team out there and try to win over one contract at a time.

One word: Liability.

Nuff said.

 

[Buzznrose]

Underwood already make potent .223 rounds. Grind Hard Ammo does too.

I don’t see how this would be better than Hornady TAP or Federal HST.

And for the best stuff…look to Black Hills Ammo.

 

[jmorris]

Well, all the would have too do beat the big dogs when they bid on the contract.

That's not easy when you don't have millions of dollars in equipment and have to resort to manual labor instead. Along with the problems the humans can cause...

 

[ballman6711]

Well, all the would have too do beat the big dogs when they bid on the contract.

That's not easy when you don't have millions of dollars in equipment and have to resort to manual labor instead. Along with the problems the humans can cause...

I was thinking along these lines as well. The "hand checking" for quality at the various stages would drive the cost up substantially while driving production down.

-Brand new hand inspected brass, resized to minimum specs using a Small base die for clean feeding in all MSRs. Hand trimmed, chamfered and deburred.

- Rounds are hand inspected in a case gauge and hand boxed by one of our technicians.

It sounds great in theory, but the reality is that it wouldn't work for any serious mass production.

BTW, those rounds look great, really nice job you did!

chris

 

[Palladan44]

I was thinking along these lines as well. The "hand checking" for quality at the various stages would drive the cost up substantially while driving production down.





It sounds great in theory, but the reality is that it wouldn't work for any serious mass production.

BTW, those rounds look great, really nice job you did!

chris

Thank you!
I was just thinking with how de-centralized local LE is in the US, that there would be a decent following if marketing played their cards right. After all, people like using small businesses more and more, even the govt. I wouldn't expect to win over the FBI or the DEA (at least at first) but all the others. LE in the US uses literally probably a hundred different manufacturers of rifles....too many to even begin to start naming, and guaranteed some them none of us ever heard of.

As for profit margins, I call a bit of b.s.
Let's just call it a buck a round for a dept. to buy Gold Dots or Federal SPs......The big manufacturers (Vista) are raking it in big time on those margins. I mean, big time. There is no stopping them.

Let's just say a boutique small manufacturer has a whopping 50 cents (which is a lot) per round of cost into a round. That's another 50 cents profit, or more. If they are higher quality you could charge a bit more.

Sorry, I hate mega corporations. I am not a fan. We all know what happens when they dominate a market, even with different named products, in different shaped bottles, different colors.....
I'm just throwing an idea out there, a pipe dream. Vista outdoor owns at least 90% of the market with Metallic Components. They are screwing us sideways!!

 

[westernrover]

A boutique maker would have an evidence problem. The big makers keep records and samples of their production lots and maintain a chain of custody for all the materials that could be evidence in a case. Law enforcement agencies and individual officers cannot use boutique "killer" bullets and then get caught with their pants down in a case where the opposing council wants to know the answer to the question of "you shot my client with what?!" Many people would present the rationale that the individual self-defender should make the same considerations. It's just not the place for deviation from "norms." This is the whole weight behind the argument that one should not use handloads for their carry gun. I don't want to bring that up to derail this thread, but law enforcement agencies have to make the evidentiary considerations in their choices. They need to be able to answer the complicated ballistics questions definitively should the circumstances demand it.

 

[ballman6711]

As for profit margins, I call a bit of b.s.
Let's just call it a buck a round for a dept. to buy Gold Dots or Federal SPs......The big manufacturers (Vista) are raking it in big time on those margins. I mean, big time. There is no stopping them.

Let's just say a boutique small manufacturer has a whopping 50 cents (which is a lot) per round of cost into a round. That's another 50 cents profit, or more. If they are higher quality you could charge a bit more.

I see your point, and I'm sure they are making a healthy profit. If they weren't they wouldn't do it.

But, for a small manufacture to do what you stated in your original post would be difficult at best. Let's say they could do it for .25c per loaded round. That's great. Now how about the labor cost? What would you pay your employee per hour? Whatever you pay, you can double that cost by the time you pay additional cost like unemployment, social security, etc.... So now your $15 per hour costs $30 per hour. If you give them benefits that cost just goes up.

Brand new hand inspected brass

Nice, but this would take time.

Hand trimmed, chamfered and deburred

I can do 50 pieces of rifle brass in about 10 minutes on my hand cranked trimmer. Time could be cut using a mechanical/electric trimmer, but would still take time.

Rounds are hand inspected in a case gauge and hand boxed by one of our technicians.

Next question is how much time doe's it take to hand inspect each round for quality? Hand packing the ammo is still more time.

It just all adds up, and I don't see how it could be profitable on a large scale. Even a local LE department might want 10k rounds, per year, for training. That's a lot when doing so much "by hand".

It may be able to be done with a profit, but I would think that profit would be pretty small.

chris

 

[jmorris]

I was thinking along these lines as well. The "hand checking" for quality at the various stages would drive the cost up substantially while driving production down.

I've seen it play out, even had photos along the way. Rooms full of machines that reloaders think are "idiot proof",



Then they hire labor and



Right after that's all said and done, camdex and ammoload machines seem not only affordable but cheap...and you've got to have at least one guy that knows how to keep them running or rely on factory support.

 

[styles]

Why?

 

[jmorris]

Why?

Why hire cheap labor or why does cheap labor not have much knowlege?

Because help thats as smart as you costs a much as you would cost, as you would expect and with many businesses the margins are not there because larger operations have already automated those positions out of existance and don't have to deal with their costs.

Why it might sound like great idea at times but just understand you are at a disadvantage against manufactures. Buffalo Bore probably understands this and stays out of mass production stuff and sticks to the boutique model. Picking the low hanging fruit the big guys have missed.

Kind of like people that say reloading, in general, "isn't worth it". They probably shoot the most common rounds, .223/9mm where its even harder to beat the big guys. Reload the odd balls, that they don't mess with and your perspective changes. Do the math on either of the above and then, 500 s&w and 257 Weatherby and reloading becomes more appealing.

 

[unclenunzie]

So many issues conceptually but the main one is scale. How would BB scale up production to sufficient levels to offer quality and pricing on par with Federal, Speer, or Winchester? The initial cost outlay would be astronomical. Why would any LEA take on the risk of a boutique manufacturer's products at a necessarily higher cost when they have proven effective products from the aforementioned major manufacturers? They answer is they won't, and BB ownership knows this and sticks to their niche and is very successful at it.

 

[Buzznrose]

Honestly, “Law Enforcement “ ammunition is such a stupid term. Are cop bullets any better than any other high quality, similar component non-cop bullets?

Especially in .223/5.56, there is nothing magic about a TAP or an HST or a Gold Dot other than they use quality bullets, cases, and powders. I could easily substitute Black Hills, Federal Fusion, Hornady/Winchester/Remington/Underwood/et al hunting rounds and be good to go.

Buffalo Bore currently has two excellent .223 rounds on their website, an all copper Barnes and a HP match round. Either would suffice.

 

[jmr40]

LE and military order ammo made to specs they want. Not necessarily better than what we buy, just different. And they buy in large quantities. Buffalo Bore is a relatively small company selling low volume specialty ammo. I doubt they have the capacity to meet the production demands for this.

 

[Buzznrose]

LE and military order ammo made to specs they want. Not necessarily better than what we buy, just different. And they buy in large quantities. Buffalo Bore is a relatively small company selling low volume specialty ammo. I doubt they have the capacity to meet the production demands for this.

The ammo companies don’t make ammo to police specs, LEO’s choose companies and loads based on testing the available ammunition. FBI is a good example where they tested a lot of ammo and settled on Hornady Critical Duty for 9MM.

US Military has parameters for ammo, and hire companies to make it to their specs, but that’s for many millions of rounds that get sold into the General Services Administration and Service logistics depots. Much of it is made at the Lake City depot which is a US Gov facility but Olin Corp has the contract to manufacture there.

 

[styles]

I don’t see any explanation of why Buffalo Bore should do that or why that ammo quality should be LE?

 

[Buzznrose]

I don’t see any explanation of why Buffalo Bore should do that or why that ammo quality should be LE?

If you mean “making LEO ammo”, neither do I.

Buffalo Bore has their business plan…I don’t honestly know specifics, but from my “way outside” POV, they seem pretty focused on high quality, life or death hunting ammunition. And by most accounts I’ve read, they are dang good at that.

If I ever go on an Africa hunt or a brown bear hunt, I will most likely use BB ammo. That doesn’t mean I don’t believe Federal or Hornady or Winchester can make ammo that will work, but if I’m gonna spend the money to chase dangerous game, I’m bringing a solid high caliber gun with top quality ammunition.