Buffalo Guns - Butcher's Crossing Film

[Chief TC]

I just saw this film yesterday and I was paying close attention to how they decided to show the shooting scenes and anything to do with rifles and cartridges. I am interested if anyone else saw the movie and what y'all thought.

What I observed - Nicolas Cage is the buffalo shooter and has what looks to be an 1874 Sharps. You can see the base for a vernier sight but he shoots it with open sights and I never saw him use the ladder sights. Also, he does use cross sticks but more often than not he is shooting off-hand or prone. I think what I found the most interesting and inaccurate is when he is building cartridges. They show Cage using a powder measure to quickly pour powder in a case and then he seems to push in an ungreased GG bullet into the case and then tap the bullet down with a small wooden hammer.

I think they had the right ideas for the most part but from what i have read, it would be an inaccurate portrayal of how they shot and how they reloaded. I'm sure some folks did not use vernier sights but would have used the ladder sight. And the pouring of powder was not accurate and I believe paper patch was the main method.

 

[Chief TC]

Well, I guess I am the only one that has seen this movie. Wasn't exactly a blockbuster.

 

[hawg]

I think it's on Netflix. I'll watch it the next time I pick up Netflix. I'm not paying extra to watch anything. At least they portrayed reloading even if they did get it wrong. I do think Vernier sights would have been the norm.

 

[woodnbow]

Well, I guess I am the only one that has seen this movie. Wasn't exactly a blockbuster.

I started to read the book. Seems like they’re making these movies from a sort of woke perspective and to top it off, the book seems to have been written by a beatnik bent on demonizing the folks who “tamed the west”.
I don’t believe I’d watch it if it was free. Same with the new series Shogun. Made it through the first half hour before the portrait of the Dutch sailors as completely ignorant and excessively profane barbarians made it impossible to continue. Nothing in the book prepared me for this.

 

[Chief TC]

I started to read the book. Seems like they’re making these movies from a sort of woke perspective and to top it off, the book seems to have been written by a beatnik bent on demonizing the folks who “tamed the west”.

Maybe the book does this but I didn't pick up on anything overt demonizing the folks who tamed the west. Now you could make the argument that the writer demonized the irresponsible buffalo hunting that occurred during that period, but I think that is not the writer but the actions of those people who hunted them almost to extinction. I think it was more focused on a fictional story of 4 people all viewing things in very different ways and conflict ensues. Buffalo hunting is the backdrop of the story.

I meant to add that no one should ever read a novel and have some expectation of historical accuracy and neutrality. The nature of novels is fiction and is meant to be an artful depiction. Now there is a genre of historical fiction which should hold true to historical facts but the novel does not fall under this genre.

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

Over hunting was no where near the main cause of the "near extinction" of the bison.
But many folks would rather blame hunters.

 

[hawg]

Over hunting was no where near the main cause of the "near extinction" of the bison.
But many folks would rather blame hunters.

Are you sure about that? This is just one of many piles of buffalo bones waiting to be ground into fertilizer in 1870.

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

Are you sure about that? This is just one of many piles of buffalo bones waiting to be ground into fertilizer in 1870.

Yes
There wasn't even close enough lead available to have shot them all even if there were enough hunters to do it.
The calculations have been done, but I don't have them at hand.

 

[StrawHat]

The introduction of cattle into the “West” and the associated diseases that accompanied and spread to the Bison, certainly had a factor in the death of the Bison herds.

Kevin

 

[hawg]

Yes
There wasn't even close enough lead available to have shot them all even if there were enough hunters to do it.
The calculations have been done, but I don't have them at hand.

I'd like to see that because I can't find it anywhere online.

The introduction of cattle into the “West” and the associated diseases that accompanied and spread to the Bison, certainly had a factor in the death of the Bison herds.

Kevin

Cattle have been in the Americas since 1493 and in the west since 1539. Brucellosis is the main disease common to both cattle and bison but there no evidence that cattle transmitted it to bison until well after the turn of the 20th century. I really can't see too many head of cattle intermingling with bison before then.

 

[Chief TC]

Sorry, all you have to do is read a little bit of history. Overhunting was the biggest factor towards the bison’s almost extinction. This is the part where people try to push their own narrative and they try to believe in some sort of fairytale rather than look at the real history to make themselves feel better than human impacts are not that significant. it is not that difficult to push a species to extinction especially when humans are involved. History is replete with humans negatively impacting the environment because they don’t consider how their actions affect the future. There is tons of evidence with humans from the middle ages negatively impacting their environment to where the water is contaminated and crops won’t grow properly. if humans can impact the environment during that time frame, imagine what humans are able to do in the modern era. And I’m not even diving in to the policy of the Army to eliminate the main resource to native Americans

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

I'm not pushing a fairy tale that humans didn't impact the decline of the bison, but literally deliberate hunting of them was not the main cause.
There were other human induced factors, and likely natural ones. If people didn't exist, the bison very well may still be roaming the prairies in similar numbers.
Reduction of their food source and ability to migrate unencumbered at will was more of a factor than hunting.
Increases in the number of cattle and sheep eating up the grasses.
Cattle, sheep, railroads, fences, and everything else all getting in the bison's way.
Warfare between the US and the tribes was disrupting.
The practice of the tribes burning the prairies in an effort to deny the US Calvary food for their horses also affected everything else there.

Buffalo hunters didn't shoot 60 Million bison and all of their yearly offspring in just a few years.

 

[Chief TC]

Your personal opinion is antithetical to written facts and history. Everything you mention was a contributor but over hunting was the main cause. Why you ask? Because over hunting reduces the species' population at an extreme rate to where they cannot recover and significantly disturbs reproduction rates. If ethical hunting practices and conservation were employed in 19th century buffalo hunting, the species would not have been near extinction. 60 million is the high end estimate pre-migration west. Also, one major factor you didn't mention is drought which shrank their range considerably. Bottom-line, there were about 30 million when mass killing of buffalo started and almost nothing left by 1884. Even if over hunting and needless killing were not the main factors, the acts and practices themselves are abominable.

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

drought falls under natural causes which was mentioned.
If the herd was cut in half before the blamed hunting occurred, that would pretty much prove that hunting wasn't the main factor.
Regardless, if 90% of the hunting never happened, we still would not have bison migrating back and forth across the west today like they once did, mostly because people disrupted/destroyed their rhythm and got in the way.

 

[Chief TC]

drought falls under natural causes which was mentioned.
If the herd was cut in half before the blamed hunting occurred, that would pretty much prove that hunting wasn't the main factor.
Regardless, if 90% of the hunting never happened, we still would not have bison migrating back and forth across the west today like they once did, mostly because people disrupted/destroyed their rhythm and got in the way.

The numbers are estimates by wildlife biologists, so we really don't know if 60 million was correct. It was the high estimate. Correct, with their territory and range changing, the numbers would have dropped significantly but not almost extinct by 1884 - that was due overhunting.

 

[RWMC]

I just saw this film yesterday and I was paying close attention to how they decided to show the shooting scenes and anything to do with rifles and cartridges. I am interested if anyone else saw the movie and what y'all thought.

What I observed - Nicolas Cage is the buffalo shooter and has what looks to be an 1874 Sharps. You can see the base for a vernier sight but he shoots it with open sights and I never saw him use the ladder sights. Also, he does use cross sticks but more often than not he is shooting off-hand or prone. I think what I found the most interesting and inaccurate is when he is building cartridges. They show Cage using a powder measure to quickly pour powder in a case and then he seems to push in an ungreased GG bullet into the case and then tap the bullet down with a small wooden hammer.

I think they had the right ideas for the most part but from what i have read, it would be an inaccurate portrayal of how they shot and how they reloaded. I'm sure some folks did not use vernier sights but would have used the ladder sight. And the pouring of powder was not accurate and I believe paper patch was the main method.

I saw it this past weekend. I noticed that necklace is replacement rifle that he had a young guy go back to camp and get was a Springfield 2nd Allin conversion .50-70.
It would have been a better movie had Nicolas Cage been shown how to load cartridges.

 

[StrawHat]

a Springfield 2nd Allin conversion .50-70.

It can be argued that the 50-70 probably accounted for more bison than any other cartridge.

I know the more I use my 50-70, the less use I have for the small ore -70.

Kevin

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Indeed, not all buffalo hunters used the same rifles, or used the same sights, or same shooting position. I'm with Straw-Hat, that more were probably killed with the Trapdoor Springfield than were ever shot with Sharp's Rifles. But yes, that would be a debate.

So, I don't think anyway they portrayed shooting positions, use of cross sticks or sights could really be wrong. Guys shot however they liked, or what worked for them. There was no rule or law that said you had to use cross sticks, ladder sights, or a Sharps Rifle to be a buffalo hunter. There was probably guys shooting them with their Winchesters.

On reloading, the movies never get that anywhere close to reality. If they did, I'd know the end of the world was coming, and I'd find me a lonely mountain to die on.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I know the more I use my 50-70, the less use I have for the small ore -70.

I originally wanted a .50-70, but good shooters were a bit out of my price range, but one could still get very good Trapdoors in .45-70 for around $700.

The .45-70 killed many buffs as well, as early as the Billy Dixon Adobe Wells fight the buff hunters were using it. Many .45-70 shell casings have been recovered there. "Buffalo Bill" killed all his with a .50-70 Springfield during his buff-hunting days. I believe that was "a lot".

 

[hawg]

Yes
There wasn't even close enough lead available to have shot them all even if there were enough hunters to do it.
The calculations have been done, but I don't have them at hand.

I'd like to see that because I can't find it anywhere online.

I still haven't seen anything.

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

I still haven't seen anything.

How hard have you looked?

If hunters killed all the bison they would have to kill 4 Million per year for 30 years to bring the poputaion near to zero.
Choose your favorite buffalo cartridge and do your own simple math as to how much lead that would require but if we assume 450 grains per shot based on .50-70 then that's 54,000,000,000, grains, or 7,714,286 lbs, or 3,857 Tons of lead required just to shoot the bison alone with zero missed shots

 

[StrawHat]

I originally wanted a .50-70, but good shooters were a bit out of my price range, but one could still get very good Trapdoors in .45-70 for around $700.

The .45-70 killed many buffs as well, as early as the Billy Dixon Adobe Wells fight the buff hunters were using it. Many .45-70 shell casings have been recovered there. "Buffalo Bill" killed all his with a .50-70 Springfield during his buff-hunting days. I believe that was "a lot".

Here is my Big Fifty.



Here is a thread I did on it years ago. Photobucket ate my images but the process is outlined.

A Different Trapdoor Rebuild

I posted a photo of a rebuilt trapdoor on another thread and was asked about it by a couple of members. Rather than hijack that thread (about conversion revolvers) I decided to post the reply here. This project ended up entirely different from what I originally intended it to be. I...

www.thehighroad.org

If you have questions pm me rather than derail this thread.

Kevin

 

[hawg]

How hard have you looked?

If hunters killed all the bison they would have to kill 4 Million per year for 30 years to bring the poputaion near to zero.
Choose your favorite buffalo cartridge and do your own simple math as to how much lead that would require but if we assume 450 grains per shot based on .50-70 then that's 54,000,000,000, grains, or 7,714,286 lbs, or 3,857 Tons of lead required just to shoot the bison alone with zero missed shots

Hard enough to find that hunters killed approximately 5,000 a day and that cattle causing disease has been rebuked plus the amount of lead available was many times what you say it would have had to have been. Hunters may not have been soley responsible but that amount of killing had to be devastating to the tribes.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Here is my Big Fifty.

View attachment 1206355

Here is a thread I did on it years ago. Photobucket ate my images but the process is outlined.

A Different Trapdoor Rebuild

I posted a photo of a rebuilt trapdoor on another thread and was asked about it by a couple of members. Rather than hijack that thread (about conversion revolvers) I decided to post the reply here. This project ended up entirely different from what I originally intended it to be. I...

www.thehighroad.org

If you have questions pm me rather than derail this thread.

Kevin

Oh that's right! you're the one with the Mississippi .50-70. Dang, I was trying to forget. I love that rifle.

 

[Captain*kirk]

Wow...just saw this thread.
Let's not forget one factor I didn't see mentioned regarding the hunting; the Army's secret weapon for eradication of the free plains Indian.
The plains Indian tribes used every part of the buffalo to sustain daily living; hides (tipi and clothing), bones (breastplates, whistles), meat, sinew (lashings and bindings), hooves (glue) brains (tanning) and a whole lot more. Take away this source and you have crippled their way of life and their ability to sustain it. It's been suggested that the Army was 'unofficially' encouraging hide hunters to slaughter as many as they could for this purpose.

I have also read that the rolling block rifle was likely more popular than the Sharps for buffalo hunting. A Sharps was not inexpensive back then, either.