Bulk 22LR - Sorting by Weight and Rim Thickness for Accuracy

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It’s been many years since a friend of mine and I played with .22’s out to 300 yards. We did a lot more testing of ammunition than sorting or “doctoring” but that’s what are results showed was more important.

You might have more meaningful results at more distant ranges and I would also suggest using a chronograph because ammunition might group good up close or far away but act really weird at the point it transitions from super to subsonic. It was an odd phenomenon to me how something could get more accurate at a further distances.
 
You might have more meaningful results at more distant ranges and I would also suggest using a chronograph
After I finish repeat testing at 25 yards (I am planning on sorting Winchester M22 for next range trip along with Federal 36 gr CP HP), I can do 50 yard testing. Definite yes on chrono testing.

I am just glad we can buy "cheap" 22LR again.

BTW, Cabela's has Armscor 36 gr CP HP (1247 fps) for $14.88/500
Got the Armscor 22LR and will be doing a comparison for "cheapest" 22LR shootout. (BTW, they are sold out)

Getting ready to retire with reduced income, I am trying to cut shooting cost where I can.

Your results with the Federal 550 rd. "red box" are about what I expected. With the bullets flopping around in the box, it isn't surprising that there might be damage to the bullets that affect their aerodynamics. I am going to assume that the other rounds fired in your testing were in 50-100 boxes where the bullets would not have bumped into each other.
Yes, CCI Blazer, Aguila and Armscor were all boxed and you bring up an interesting point as 525 round CCI Blazer 38 gr Lead RN "Value Pack" (1235 fps) is loose bulk packed and different from "boxed" CCI Blazer 40 gr Lead RN - https://www.targetsportsusa.com/cci-blazer-22-lr-ammo-40-grain-lrn-value-pack-10021-p-1453.aspx


And there is also 525 round CCI Blazer "Value Pack" with 40 gr Lead RN (1235 fps) - https://www.luckygunner.com/cci-22-lr-ammo-for-sale-22lr40lrncciblazer-525

I have Federal 38 gr CP HP (275 round box), Federal 36 gr CP HP (525 round blue box), Federal 36 gr CP HP (550 round red box) and Winchester 40 gr CP RN on hand are loose bulk packaged. Aguila 40 gr CP RN (Eley and Aguila prime) and Armscor 36 gr CP HP are boxed.

So far, "boxed" Aguila 22LR have produced smaller groups than "loose bulk" 22LR. If "boxed" Armscor 22LR also produce smaller groups than "loose bulk" 22LR, your point may be confirmed and I could do a separate bulk vs boxed comparison and may include boxed and loose bulk CCI Blazer.


FWIW, I am happy to report that now I am getting almost no duds from various Federal bulk 22LR. I can even go through an entire box of cheapest Federal 550 round Walmart red box without a single dud. And I have had zero duds with Aguila ammo (None so far). However, I am still getting a few duds with each bulk box of Winchester M22.
 
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I know it'd be a lot of work, but if loose vs. boxed is considered to be a factor, have you considered taking some of the boxed stuff, sticking it in a small container loose, and shaking or tumbling it to see if it has a statistically detrimental effect on accuracy?
 
I know it'd be a lot of work, but if loose vs. boxed is considered to be a factor, have you considered taking some of the boxed stuff, sticking it in a small container loose, and shaking or tumbling it to see if it has a statistically detrimental effect on accuracy?
Actually I don't need to as CCI Blazer 40 gr Lead RN comes in 50 round boxes and loose bulk 525 round "Value Pack" (Also comes in 38 gr Lead RN Value Pack).

Boxed 40 gr Blazer - https://www.targetsportsusa.com/cci...mmo-40-grain-lead-round-nose-0021-p-1357.aspx

Loose bulk 40 gr Blazer - https://www.luckygunner.com/cci-22-lr-ammo-for-sale-22lr40lrncciblazer-525

Loose bulk 38 gr Blazer - https://www.targetsportsusa.com/cci-blazer-22-lr-ammo-40-grain-lrn-value-pack-10021-p-1453.aspx

I will see if I can locate both to do side-by-side comparison range test to see if boxed Blazer produces smaller groups than loose bulk Blazer.
 
Well, looks like bulk 40 gr Lead RN 525 round Blazer Value Pack is no longer available and replaced with 38 gr Lead RN 525 round Blazer Value Pack.

And 40 gr boxed vs 38 gr loose bulk comparison will introduce additional variables of bullet weight and powder charge.
have you considered taking some of the boxed stuff, sticking it in a small container loose, and shaking or tumbling it to see if it has a statistically detrimental effect on accuracy?
I may try this with some boxed 22LR.

But I remember seeing a video where the poster went through a bulk box of 22LR and isolated rounds with loose bullet and found accuracy decreased with loose bullet rounds.

So if I dump a box of 22LR and shake the container enough to loosen bullets, it will likely decrease accuracy.
 
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There is an excellent article at the end of the Oct 2014 Shooting Sports USA on group size and accuracy: http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/nra/ssusa_201410/ This foundational article was written by small bore prone competitors who wanted to shoot perfect scores. In small bore prone a Match is a 40 shot event of two twenty shot targets. The typical 1600 round Smallbore bore prone tournament is 160 rounds fired for record, divided up into four 40 round Matches. herefore the referenced article assumes that a 40 round group is the baseline.

As anyone can see in table six, at least at 100 yards, a five shot group is 59% of the size of a 40 shot group, a 10 shot 74%, and a twenty shot 88%. A three shot group is below contempt, but three shot groups are the current standard for the shooting community because the leaders of the shooting community, that is in print Gunwriters, have convinced the shooting community that three shot groups are an exact measure of accuracy and consistency.

What we should recognize is that Gunwriters are shills for the industry. They really don't want to exhaustively test the weapons they are given for several reasons. The first is time and materials. Gunwriters are given a flat fee for their articles, the less they shoot, the less they spend, the more money they get to keep. The less time and material they have to spend on the current article, the more time and less money they have to spend on the next. That is one reason, and another is because even though these guys get weapons that are "worked over", they are not interested in proving the inherent accuracy of the thing, because the inherent accuracy of the thing may not meet the communities' expectations. Given the decades of constant repetition of the three shot groups in print, it is no wonder that the shooting community pretty much embraces it as the golden standard. This is a one example of how advertisers shape and mold society. There are numerous other examples, such as the diamond engagement ring, and how all Christian holiday's have turned into "gift" giving holiday's. If you love someone, you buy them something, and if you really love them, then you must buy them something really expensive.

Eley came to one of the Smallbore Prone National Matches to give a sales pitch for their in door range. Eley did address the rim measurement question by putting up a chart of all the characteristics they measure and control. There must have been a hundred. But this is also match ammunition. That level of quality control is not to be found in bulk ammunition. After seeing the number of characteristics they measure and control, it was obvious to me that the prevailing idea that someone can measure one ammunition characteristic, other than group size, and see an improvement, is based on small sample sizes, confirmation bias, the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy and probably other fallacies . There is nothing evil going on here, it is just that humans see what they want to see. It is the way our minds work. Humans see patterns were none exist, and this idea that accurate rimfire rounds can be pulled from a population of inaccurate rounds, by any means other than shooting, is based on small sample sizes and the human bias to see patterns where they don't exist. Literally millions of gamblers think they have a "system" which allows them to beat the Casino. In the long run, gamblers always loose against the house, but in the short run, the occasional win allows gamblers to think that their "system" is working. Same thing for those who conduct rim measurements and think they see an improvement. The only way to see an improvement on target, is to shoot enough rim fire ammunition to statistically prove an improvement. And that takes testing at the range.

I have seen radical differences in group sizes with different brands of bulk ammunition, but, once you shoot up the lot of your best bulk ammunition, there is no guarantee the next lot of the stuff will shoot as well. And bulk ammunition has never been as consistent as match ammunition, even the cheaper grades of match ammunition.

Eley has a 50 meter range in the US and Lapua has a 100 yard range. I have been to the Lapua range for lot testing of ammunition in one Anschutz rifle. Both entities shoot 40 shot composite groups for the most promising ammunition. What was amazing to me, was to see the differences in accuracy between lots of "similar" quality. Eley told us, they did have separate production lines for their various ammunition brands, and the most QC is conducted on the Red Box and Black Box lines. At the end of the line, lots are sorted into Red Box (most expensive) and Black Box (less expensive but still hideously expensive) by which lots shot best in the range test barrels. . Eley was rather dismissive of questions about which barrels they use, and I believe it is because ammunition lots are more variable than match barrels. At least that has been my experience with match rifles. Shooters will find that different lots of the same quality ammunition shoot differently and the differences are quite large. A shooter who placed third in the Nation that year, told me that lot tested ammunition then had to be shot in position, because results off the machine fixture were not necessarily indicative of how the ammunition did prone Ammunition makes more of a difference on target than a particular barrel brand, assuming a good barrel, good chambering job, and a steady rest.
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An F Class shooting bud gave up on TAC22 after this target. He was continually frustrated with the inconsistency of the ammunition. but this 12 inch dropped shot caused him to walk to Eley Black Box ammunition.

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Same gun, same distance, different day of course, but Eley Black Box ammunition. Bud is now shooting rounder, more consistent groups.

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This is a recent example, to me, of the difference between good rimfire ammunition, and lesser quality rimfire ammunition in a match rifle. These groups were shot in the same match, same rifle. This Center-X ammunition is good stuff. While this is not a 100-10X, this ammunition is showing potential in this rifle.

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This SK Rifle Match shot well at fifty yards, but at 100 yards, I am 100 % certain that the 6 O'C shot was not due to me, could have been due to a wind change, but overall, I have had enough of these dropped shots with lesser ammunition to be confident, this is just something that happens with cheaper ammunition.

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I have shot enough of the good Center-X in other rifles, that I have a great deal of confidence in its consistency. It consistently shoots round groups and I have not experienced dropped shots like I have seen with cheaper match ammunition. And I think that is the primary difference between the different grades of match ammunition. The higher grade stuff is more consistent, though, it is not unknown to have a flyer that cannot be explained, and the flyer tends to be closer to the middle than a flyer from cheap ammunition.

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SK Standard Plus is even a cheaper grade of ammunition, shot a nice group in my Kimber, but that low velocity shot with Eley Club is something you will occasionally see with the lesser grades of match ammunition.


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I have shot enough ammunition and seen enough 6 O'C dropouts with cheaper ammunition to believe, that it is a real phenoma, and that it happens much more often with cheaper ammunition. I have shot the awful stuff they issue to Juniors, I think it is CCI Standard Velocity, and I could not hold the ten ring at 50 yards in my match rifle. I have not scanned any of my bulk ammunition targets, I only use that stuff for getting on paper when zeroing a rifle and for calibrating my chronograph. I have to say, my case of Remington Target Match is some of the most unreliable and inaccurate ammunition I own. I have blown about half a case of Green Tag downrange and was not impressed.

Last weekend I shot CCI SV in my Ruger MKII and had an alibi during timed fire. The round failed to eject. The case was so low pressure it never left the chamber. This is new ammunition, bought it last year, from the case at the LGS. I had no idea which hole the alibi round put in the target, and based on my ability to shoot Bullseye Pistol, I don't have the ability to sort out good rounds from bad rounds offhand with a pistol. So, cheap, bulk rimfire ammunition is just fine for me, with a pistol, as long as it always goes bang!
 
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I have never seen a "test" on center-fire total cartridge weight, ymmv.

It wasn't a test but I weight my mil surplus 7.62x54r ammo for vintage military matches. Got rid of my random fliers. Unfortunately each batch has to be zero'd separately. Overall weight variations were over 10gr. I also bump back the bullets slightly to break the varnish seals.
 
bds, one limiting factory might be your rifle. How repeatable is it for the same ammo group after group? I know some rimfire benchrest guys that are crazy about their ammo. If it helps high end ammo, it HAS to help cheap ammo.
 
I did a accuracy test on ammo a while back, three .22 scoped rifles and 5 different brands of ammo. Rem Golden Bullets, CCI Mini Mags, CCI Blazers, Win. Super X, Federal High Powers. All 40 grain high velosity solids. Using a Red field sight in target with 5 bullseyes,and shooting off the bench, I shot 10 round groups with each brand of ammo in each rifle on one target. I cleaned the barrel after each brand of ammo in each rifle. I took my time and try ed to get the best accuracy. After 2-3 hours I layed out the targets to examine.To my surprise the CCI Blazers were noticeably shot the tightest groups in all three rifles. Not scientific but the best I could do. The CCI Blazers were also noticeably the most dirty burning. hdbiker
 
still interested in your test, bds. i'm curious to know if the weight difference can all be attributed to powder volume and not to bullet and case weight.

luck,

murf
 
Eley ... address ... number of characteristics they measure and control
Thanks for your post. Gave me quite a lot to chew on and reminded me why I sweat the details for reloading.

If I am looking to load "match grade" pistol ammo, especially for small case volume 9mm where small changes in reloading variables can have bigger effect on chamber pressures, I am more inclined to pursue consistency in bullet weight/length/ogive/diameter, case wall thickness/neck tension/bullet setback, powder charge variance, hand primed seating depth, max/working OAL vs start of rifling vs neck tension, finished OAL vs chambered OAL, etc. as I have myth busted and vigorously pursued these reloading variables to resolution on various Handloading and Reloading category threads outlined in this post - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-10#post-10966692

Taking your post into consideration, trying to sort cheapest loose bulk 22LR by weight and rim thickness is like trying to sort finished 9mm rounds loaded with mixed range brass and pulled plated bullets from different bullet manufacturers with powder that does not meter well. Most reloaders, including me, would say this can't be done. In the same manner, sorting just by weight and rim thickness of bulk 22LR, as you posted, don't address the variables sufficiently.

The only way to see an improvement on target, is to shoot enough rim fire ammunition to statistically prove an improvement. And that takes testing at the range.
I agree and that's why I shot multiple reference 10 shot groups of unsorted bulk 22LR before, during and after range testing to keep verifying there was a difference between unsorted and sorted rounds.

I plan to continue sorting and range testing, not just Federal 36 gr CP HP but Winchester 40 gr CP RN next and other brand 22LR to increase sample size and see whether there is a trend.

bds, one limiting factory might be your rifle. How repeatable is it for the same ammo group after group?
I know. The Take Down model with detachable barrel adds additional variable but I am not after producing smallest single hole group rather accuracy trend. I even thought about buying another 10/22 with fixed barrel but figured there are many Take Down owners and since this was unscientific testing anyways, thought would give Take Down owners realistic real world test data to reference.

still interested in your test, bds. i'm curious to know if the weight difference can all be attributed to powder volume and not to bullet and case weight.
Thanks and yes, I plan to continue the sorting and range testing.

I could pull some rounds apart and weigh the bullets and powder charges.
 
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Thanks for your post. Gave me quite a lot to chew on and reminded me why I sweat the details for reloading.

I agree and that's why I shot multiple reference 10 shot groups of unsorted bulk 22LR before, during and after range testing to keep verifying there was a difference between unsorted and sorted 22LR.

I plan to continue sorting and range testing, not just Federal 36 gr CP HP but Winchester 40 gr CP RN next and other brand 22LR to increase sample size and see whether there is a trend.
.

The number of rounds Eley and Lapua will put down range for their 22 lr testing is 40 rounds per lot. Even then, some lots are so close, or confounding, that more rounds should be put down range to increase certainty. But neither Eley or Lapua will do that, you have to make your decision based on four ten shot groups and a composite. What I mean by confounding is the MOA measurements for one Center-X was better at 100 yards, than 50 yards, for the same ten shot group!. To show that rim measurements do improve accuracy you are going to have to get your round count up.

Eley showed a 600 round group that was under an inch (might have been .6 inches) at 100 yards (or meters). I asked them if every lot was like that, and they said "of course!". :D

Measuring rims and overall weight will not detect differences in crimp, bullet center of gravity, nor reveal a damaged base. And I really doubt it will detect powder charge differences. With bulk ammunition, I am of the opinion just go out and shoot the stuff, use the brand/lot that groups and functions best.

Twenty two long rifle ammunition came out in 1887. The primer compound is in the rim, the bullet is crimped in the rear, and it has a soft lead base that is easily damaged.

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I am amazed by accuracy of my match ammunition, given what must be the great difficultly in producing accurate ammunition given its design limitations. I think the only reason it is still around is due to cost and the shear volume of firearms chambered in this caliber. Surely there is a better way to make accurate 22 caliber lead cartridge ammunition.
 
Measuring rims and overall weight will not detect differences in crimp, bullet center of gravity, nor reveal a damaged base. And I really doubt it will detect powder charge differences. With bulk ammunition, I am of the opinion just go out and shoot the stuff, use the brand/lot that groups and functions best.
So true.

Reminds me of a post that expressed said group size could be dependent on which 5 rounds you happen to grab out of the box. :eek: (Yup, this made me think and it's true) And why I agree with you and jmorris and Bart B. that larger group size provides more information (And all holes, including flyers must be counted as part of group). I believe 10 shot group is much better than 5 and 20 is better than 10, and so on.

Eley showed a 600 round group that was under an inch (might have been .6 inches) at 100 yards (or meters). I asked them if every lot was like that, and they said "of course!". :D
And this is the key point, lack of consistency. With cheapest loose bulk 22LR (and for most low cost boxed 22LR), we won't get significant enough consistency round-to-round.

And the occasional "smallest" group size doesn't count as one small group cannot ensure the next group will be just as small.

So I will be looking at "average" trend of group size.
 
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based on small sample sizes and the human bias to see patterns where they don't exist

Couldn't have said it better!

There are a lot of "weight and rim measurement" bulk sorting tests out there across various sites and forums. It's always a small sample size and the accuracy "improvement" is not incredibly significant. Sorting by external measurements can't tell you the quality of the components, primer amount, powder charge, amount of crimp - ie consistent components or factors that directly correlate to consistent exit velocities and external trajectory.

Majoring on the minors is not something that has been shown to be effective or repeatable. Otherwise, competitors at every level of 22LR competition would be doing it.
 
When I see those rim thickness types shoot targets like this at Regional's, or the Nationals, I will take them more seriously

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These were shot by a couple of current and former Smallbore Prone National Champions. Who don't weigh their bullets nor measure their rim thicknesses. They go out and shoot the stuff, and if it shoots well and is consistent, they go win National Championships.

The 50 meter target is the most difficult target of all, in my opinion. Unless if you are shooting a metric match, then all the targets are impossible.

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There are a lot of "weight and rim measurement" bulk sorting tests out there across various sites and forums. It's always a small sample size and the accuracy "improvement" is not incredibly significant. Sorting by external measurements can't tell you the quality of the components, primer amount, powder charge, amount of crimp - ie consistent components or factors that directly correlate to consistent exit velocities and external trajectory.
As with slamfire's post, I agree and posted,
Taking your post into consideration, trying to sort cheapest loose bulk 22LR by weight and rim thickness is like trying to sort finished 9mm rounds loaded with mixed range brass and pulled plated bullets from different bullet manufacturers with powder that does not meter well. Most reloaders, including me, would say this can't be done. In the same manner, sorting just by weight and rim thickness of bulk 22LR, as you posted, don't address the variables sufficiently.
So if that's the case, then this thread will simply confirm or bust this notion of sorting 22LR by weight and rim thickness.


For my initial range test, I shot over 300+ rounds with reference unsorted groups shot alongside sorted groups to verify reduction in group size and was intrigued by groups I saw. It will be interesting what subsequent range test results show as sample size increases and additional brands of loose bulk 22LR are added to the sample size.

In future range tests, I will include all reference unsorted groups that were shot instead of just two groups I posted on my initial range test.

Next range test will be repeat of Federal 36 gr CP HP with addition of Winchester M22 40 gr CP RN.

Stay tuned.
 
These were shot by a couple of current and former Smallbore Prone National Champions. Who don't weigh their bullets nor measure their rim thicknesses. They go out and shoot the stuff, and if it shoots well and is consistent, they go win National Championships.

The high end ammo they shoot doesn't have those variances.
I don't sort my match ammo for 50' indoor 4 position.
I know 50 meter bench rest guys that shoot at a pinhead 10 ring that do. The ones that don't suffer the results. That being said these are HIGH END bench guns that pretty much eliminate human mechanical error. You still get screwed on a wind switch.
 
Well, on my retirement pension income, I won't be able to afford high end Eley or SK match ammo for high volume plinking/shooting drills. :D

But I will have time to sort cheapest bulk 22LR ammo. ;)

And I won't need one inch groups at 50 yards as most of my 22LR will be used up on point shooting drills with my ARs/CMMG 22LR conversion bolt and GSG 1911 at close range.

If I can get around one inch groups at 25 yards, I will be more than happy and will add red dot plinking soda cans to my drills.

Just glad I was able to stock up on copper plated 22LR at $15-$18/500 for retirement. Just received Armscor 36 gr CP HP bought for $14.88/500 shipped and looking forward to testing them - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...30-for-500-rounds.825048/page-7#post-11113623

If they are anywhere close in accuracy to this video, I will be a happy camper as I won't need to do any sorting (Accuracy group testing with 10/22 at 11:37 minute mark of video)

 
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You guys are great! We're men! Obscure detail about obscure topics fascinates us! (Girls generally will NOT understand our fascination for such things)

(I do a lot of my routine practice with .22 conversion units for various handguns and my AR-15 and find CCI Mini-Mags to be about the best for that application. My other .22 pistols and revolvers are not ammo sensitive)
 
Well, after comparison testing 20+ 22LR ammo with a new Ruger 10/22 Collector #3 capturing/documenting every 5/10 shot group to almost 3000 rounds from initial break-in, I deemed using the ammo your firearm prefers would be a better option :D - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...lector-3-break-in.859106/page-2#post-11351163

So far, CCI SV/CCI Blazer 40 gr Lead RN have consistently produced single hole/near one hole 1" groups at 50 yards with Aguila 40 gr Lead RN/CPRN producing next accurate groups. Federal Auto Match 40 gr LRN was next on the accuracy followed by Federal 38 gr CPHP Field Pack/Armscor 36 gr CPHP and Remington Thunderbolt 40 gr LRN. And every brand lot # of ammo purchased within the past 1-2 years fired consistently without any misfires with the exception of Winchester 40 gr black CPRN M22 (Several misfires per box of 500).

I ordered a Thompson Center TCR/22 which many reviews documented sub 3/4" 50 yard groups with premium ammo so stay tuned for another "real world" 20+ ammo comparison thread.
 
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Luck helps, too. I once got lucky and shot excellent targets with Winchester Super X HV in 10/22. I was very lucky, I had bought a case of it. But when the case ran out, my luck ran out and I have not seen its equal since.
My High Standard Citation was most accurate with the Winchester T22 of the day. The high priced spread could do no better and seldom as well. I am talking 50 yard X ring... from Ransom Rest.
 
There is an excellent article at the end of the Oct 2014 Shooting Sports USA on group size and accuracy: http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/nra/ssusa_201410/ This foundational article was written by small bore prone competitors who wanted to shoot perfect scores. In small bore prone a Match is a 40 shot event of two twenty shot targets. The typical 1600 round Smallbore bore prone tournament is 160 rounds fired for record, divided up into four 40 round Matches. herefore the referenced article assumes that a 40 round group is the baseline.

As anyone can see in table six, at least at 100 yards, a five shot group is 59% of the size of a 40 shot group, a 10 shot 74%, and a twenty shot 88%. A three shot group is below contempt, but three shot groups are the current standard for the shooting community because the leaders of the shooting community, that is in print Gunwriters, have convinced the shooting community that three shot groups are an exact measure of accuracy and consistency.

What we should recognize is that Gunwriters are shills for the industry. They really don't want to exhaustively test the weapons they are given for several reasons. The first is time and materials. Gunwriters are given a flat fee for their articles, the less they shoot, the less they spend, the more money they get to keep. The less time and material they have to spend on the current article, the more time and less money they have to spend on the next. That is one reason, and another is because even though these guys get weapons that are "worked over", they are not interested in proving the inherent accuracy of the thing, because the inherent accuracy of the thing may not meet the communities' expectations. Given the decades of constant repetition of the three shot groups in print, it is no wonder that the shooting community pretty much embraces it as the golden standard. This is a one example of how advertisers shape and mold society. There are numerous other examples, such as the diamond engagement ring, and how all Christian holiday's have turned into "gift" giving holiday's. If you love someone, you buy them something, and if you really love them, then you must buy them something really expensive.

This is one of the best "accuracy" posts ever! Just need to re-iterate that group size is a measure of precision, whereas accuracy is the average distance between POA and POI for each shot, quite a lot more difficult to measure. F-class requires both as the X ring is I believe 0.5 MOA so a 1 MOA group centered on the X-ring can be competitive, whereas a 0.25 MOA group off into the 9-ring is an also ran.

I'm just a recreational shooter, I'm perfectly happy shooting 2 MOA "milsurp" ammo at 4 MOA steel targets as opposed to spending a lot more $$$ on "match" ammo trying to shoot sub MOA groups -- more bang/buck for me, YMMV. But I understand how reloading and aspiring to "small groups" is seductive, but without the firm understanding of statistics shown in Slamfire's post it can quickly become self delusion.

Interesting take on accuracy and precision (humorous):
 
I might start a new project and pull apart cheap bulk ammo and weigh the contents. should find the major variable regarding cartridge weight.

murf
That's what I was wondering.... well, two things.

What is the average - proportionally represented - percentage variable in other ammunitions of other calibers. Or more directly, what is the industry median average in variation presented as a percentage.

Then, which component represents the greater portion of the variation?

Interesting read..... weird and wonky but interesting none the less.

I have always wondered how much time went into comping rounds by national and international level shooters to the same end that you are pursuing.

What really got me thinking on this was when I got this box from a VERY serious shooter many years ago. I missed the opportunity to ever ask him what went into the decision (if any) to fill each individual hole in the box prior to a competition.

Todd.
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There is an excellent article at the end of the Oct 2014 Shooting Sports USA on group size and accuracy: http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/nra/ssusa_201410/ This foundational article was written by small bore prone competitors who wanted to shoot perfect scores. In small bore prone a Match is a 40 shot event of two twenty shot targets. The typical 1600 round Smallbore bore prone tournament is 160 rounds fired for record, divided up into four 40 round Matches. herefore the referenced article assumes that a 40 round group is the baseline.

As anyone can see in table six, at least at 100 yards, a five shot group is 59% of the size of a 40 shot group, a 10 shot 74%, and a twenty shot 88%. A three shot group is below contempt, but three shot groups are the current standard for the shooting community because the leaders of the shooting community, that is in print Gunwriters, have convinced the shooting community that three shot groups are an exact measure of accuracy and consistency.

What we should recognize is that Gunwriters are shills for the industry. They really don't want to exhaustively test the weapons they are given for several reasons. The first is time and materials. Gunwriters are given a flat fee for their articles, the less they shoot, the less they spend, the more money they get to keep. The less time and material they have to spend on the current article, the more time and less money they have to spend on the next. That is one reason, and another is because even though these guys get weapons that are "worked over", they are not interested in proving the inherent accuracy of the thing, because the inherent accuracy of the thing may not meet the communities' expectations. Given the decades of constant repetition of the three shot groups in print, it is no wonder that the shooting community pretty much embraces it as the golden standard. This is a one example of how advertisers shape and mold society. There are numerous other examples, such as the diamond engagement ring, and how all Christian holiday's have turned into "gift" giving holiday's. If you love someone, you buy them something, and if you really love them, then you must buy them something really expensive.

Eley came to one of the Smallbore Prone National Matches to give a sales pitch for their in door range. Eley did address the rim measurement question by putting up a chart of all the characteristics they measure and control. There must have been a hundred. But this is also match ammunition. That level of quality control is not to be found in bulk ammunition. After seeing the number of characteristics they measure and control, it was obvious to me that the prevailing idea that someone can measure one ammunition characteristic, other than group size, and see an improvement, is based on small sample sizes, confirmation bias, the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy and probably other fallacies . There is nothing evil going on here, it is just that humans see what they want to see. It is the way our minds work. Humans see patterns were none exist, and this idea that accurate rimfire rounds can be pulled from a population of inaccurate rounds, by any means other than shooting, is based on small sample sizes and the human bias to see patterns where they don't exist. Literally millions of gamblers think they have a "system" which allows them to beat the Casino. In the long run, gamblers always loose against the house, but in the short run, the occasional win allows gamblers to think that their "system" is working. Same thing for those who conduct rim measurements and think they see an improvement. The only way to see an improvement on target, is to shoot enough rim fire ammunition to statistically prove an improvement. And that takes testing at the range.

I have seen radical differences in group sizes with different brands of bulk ammunition, but, once you shoot up the lot of your best bulk ammunition, there is no guarantee the next lot of the stuff will shoot as well. And bulk ammunition has never been as consistent as match ammunition, even the cheaper grades of match ammunition.

Eley has a 50 meter range in the US and Lapua has a 100 yard range. I have been to the Lapua range for lot testing of ammunition in one Anschutz rifle. Both entities shoot 40 shot composite groups for the most promising ammunition. What was amazing to me, was to see the differences in accuracy between lots of "similar" quality. Eley told us, they did have separate production lines for their various ammunition brands, and the most QC is conducted on the Red Box and Black Box lines. At the end of the line, lots are sorted into Red Box (most expensive) and Black Box (less expensive but still hideously expensive) by which lots shot best in the range test barrels. . Eley was rather dismissive of questions about which barrels they use, and I believe it is because ammunition lots are more variable than match barrels. At least that has been my experience with match rifles. Shooters will find that different lots of the same quality ammunition shoot differently and the differences are quite large. A shooter who placed third in the Nation that year, told me that lot tested ammunition then had to be shot in position, because results off the machine fixture were not necessarily indicative of how the ammunition did prone Ammunition makes more of a difference on target than a particular barrel brand, assuming a good barrel, good chambering job, and a steady rest.
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An F Class shooting bud gave up on TAC22 after this target. He was continually frustrated with the inconsistency of the ammunition. but this 12 inch dropped shot caused him to walk to Eley Black Box ammunition.

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Same gun, same distance, different day of course, but Eley Black Box ammunition. Bud is now shooting rounder, more consistent groups.

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This is a recent example, to me, of the difference between good rimfire ammunition, and lesser quality rimfire ammunition in a match rifle. These groups were shot in the same match, same rifle. This Center-X ammunition is good stuff. While this is not a 100-10X, this ammunition is showing potential in this rifle.

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This SK Rifle Match shot well at fifty yards, but at 100 yards, I am 100 % certain that the 6 O'C shot was not due to me, could have been due to a wind change, but overall, I have had enough of these dropped shots with lesser ammunition to be confident, this is just something that happens with cheaper ammunition.

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I have shot enough of the good Center-X in other rifles, that I have a great deal of confidence in its consistency. It consistently shoots round groups and I have not experienced dropped shots like I have seen with cheaper match ammunition. And I think that is the primary difference between the different grades of match ammunition. The higher grade stuff is more consistent, though, it is not unknown to have a flyer that cannot be explained, and the flyer tends to be closer to the middle than a flyer from cheap ammunition.

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SK Standard Plus is even a cheaper grade of ammunition, shot a nice group in my Kimber, but that low velocity shot with Eley Club is something you will occasionally see with the lesser grades of match ammunition.


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I have shot enough ammunition and seen enough 6 O'C dropouts with cheaper ammunition to believe, that it is a real phenoma, and that it happens much more often with cheaper ammunition. I have shot the awful stuff they issue to Juniors, I think it is CCI Standard Velocity, and I could not hold the ten ring at 50 yards in my match rifle. I have not scanned any of my bulk ammunition targets, I only use that stuff for getting on paper when zeroing a rifle and for calibrating my chronograph. I have to say, my case of Remington Target Match is some of the most unreliable and inaccurate ammunition I own. I have blown about half a case of Green Tag downrange and was not impressed.

Last weekend I shot CCI SV in my Ruger MKII and had an alibi during timed fire. The round failed to eject. The case was so low pressure it never left the chamber. This is new ammunition, bought it last year, from the case at the LGS. I had no idea which hole the alibi round put in the target, and based on my ability to shoot Bullseye Pistol, I don't have the ability to sort out good rounds from bad rounds offhand with a pistol. So, cheap, bulk rimfire ammunition is just fine for me, with a pistol, as long as it always goes bang!
One of the more excellently informative posts in some time.

Todd.
 
Well, after comparison testing 20+ 22LR ammo with a new Ruger 10/22 Collector #3 capturing/documenting every 5/10 shot group to almost 3000 rounds from initial break-in, I deemed using the ammo your firearm prefers would be a better option :D -
Such an age-old truism for .22lr more than any other caliber I've dealt with. Some guns only like some ammo or some guns only dis-like some ammo.

Todd.
 
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