I don’t claim to be a brain on this topic, this is more a question. I hear and read all the time about how energy is queen after shot placement. I’ve been thinking hard about this and my past hunting and talking to family members. I’ve seen coyotes shot with .22lr and .223s. At close range the .22 would drop them faster don’t know why as shot placement was similar. Cousin of mine told me he and his brother both took deer couple months ago. He was using his ar 15 and his brother had a 300 win mag. They both had lung shots at 100 -115 yards. His deer dropped in 50ft his brothers made it 300 yards. Talking to my dad he used a 12 gauge slug and my uncle used a 270 back in the day. He said at 100 yards his slug would drop a deer on the spot while with the 270 they almost every time had to trail it. That’s at the end of 12 gauge range but just beginning for 270. I am just curious how much part energy actually plays in close range kills. I’ve seen 100 yard slug kills and it went right through every time but energy should be fairly weak at that range. Our max range is about 150-200 yards. I get it at long range you want those high energy fast cartridges but my 45 colt carbine at close range and “weak loads” still smacks hard. Is it more bullet design or weight vs energy at close range?
Bullet energy confusion
- Thread starter Csinn
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mcb
Member
When the bullet arrives at the target the only energy it has to do any work (ie expansion of the bullet, damage to tissue etc) is it's kinetic energy. That said if the shot placement is correct it actually takes very little energy to poke a hole in something life ending. Killing things is far from a well defined and definitive science. There are simply too many variables, that are too hard to know, involved to make definitive predictions, especially when we factor in the "will to live". You can shoot two deer with similar shot placement, with the same gun, and one dies in their tracks and another runs off and possibly even survives the trauma. There are very few simple answers in terminal ballistics. Kinetic energy is a good number if you understand it but it's far from the complete picture.
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Handgun bullets don't .... (generalization missing the disclaimer - most)
Below 2,200 fps no whatever (as if it is like at 2,175 nothing happens, but at 2,200 magic
)
It is all about penetration & expansion, temporary cavity doesn't matter
Then we have this example
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/
4'' barrel Remington 125 SJHP 357 Mag - 13.6'' / .54 - 1,473 fps - 602# KE
4'' barrel Remington 158 LSWCHP +P - 13.4'' / .56 - 921 fps - 298# KE
Penetration & expansion in gel is near identical for those two bullets.
I (and probably most other people) think 357 Mag has better ASAP potential than the 38 special - it has 2x the KE.
Street results (anecdotal) showed 357 Mag to have better incapacitation potential than 38 special.
If one believes KE doesn't matter and it is all about penetration & expansion in gel then they think that 38 special equal in ASAP potential to that 357 Mag; I don't.
In this comparison equal shot placement was/is assumed and I should not have to say it, but now I did; I preempted the "its all about shot placement" correction.
Below 2,200 fps no whatever (as if it is like at 2,175 nothing happens, but at 2,200 magic
)It is all about penetration & expansion, temporary cavity doesn't matter
Then we have this example
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/
4'' barrel Remington 125 SJHP 357 Mag - 13.6'' / .54 - 1,473 fps - 602# KE
4'' barrel Remington 158 LSWCHP +P - 13.4'' / .56 - 921 fps - 298# KE
Penetration & expansion in gel is near identical for those two bullets.
I (and probably most other people) think 357 Mag has better ASAP potential than the 38 special - it has 2x the KE.
Street results (anecdotal) showed 357 Mag to have better incapacitation potential than 38 special.
If one believes KE doesn't matter and it is all about penetration & expansion in gel then they think that 38 special equal in ASAP potential to that 357 Mag; I don't.
In this comparison equal shot placement was/is assumed and I should not have to say it, but now I did; I preempted the "its all about shot placement" correction.
Energy numbers aren't useless but are almost useless. Put a shot into the right spot and get enough penetration to reach the vitals and at the end of the day you get the exact same results. If the bullet expands enough to create some shock the animal may lie down sooner, but it doesn't necessarily die any faster. The shock to the nervous system just takes the fight out of it faster.
Energy plays a minor part in creating that shock, but the bullet design and impact velocity are more important. All hunting bullets are designed to expand within a range of impact velocities. Most common hunting bullets will work fine if they impact between about 1800 up to about 2800 fps. If your bullet impacts too slow it won't expand, the animal may well die and be recovered, but it is more likely to run a long distance. If impact speeds are too fast the bullet may explode and only penetrate 2-3" creating a nasty surface wound, but the animal may never be recovered.
Those numbers aren't carved in stone, there are plenty of exceptions. For example, bullets designed for 30-30's will still expand slower than 1600 fps but may over expand well below 2800 fps. Handgun bullets are designed to expand at MUCH slower speeds. Other premium bullets need to impact at 2000-2200 fps or they won't expand but will stay together and not over expand even if they impact at speeds well over 3000 fps.
Virtually every time you hear about a bullet failing the bullet didn't fail. Someone just asked that bullet to do a job it wasn't designed for. If you're shooting a 300 WM with common 150 gr bullets at 3300 fps they will likely blow up at close range and not penetrate enough. That same bullet at 300 yards has slowed down to the point where it will work. Of if fired from a 308 at 2800 fps.
And then some animals just don't want to die. I've seen deer shot with 223's that dropped in their tracks. I've seen deer with a 165 gr 30-06 bullet penetrate both lungs, leave a 3" exit hole on the other side and still run over 100 yards before falling.
Energy plays a minor part in creating that shock, but the bullet design and impact velocity are more important. All hunting bullets are designed to expand within a range of impact velocities. Most common hunting bullets will work fine if they impact between about 1800 up to about 2800 fps. If your bullet impacts too slow it won't expand, the animal may well die and be recovered, but it is more likely to run a long distance. If impact speeds are too fast the bullet may explode and only penetrate 2-3" creating a nasty surface wound, but the animal may never be recovered.
Those numbers aren't carved in stone, there are plenty of exceptions. For example, bullets designed for 30-30's will still expand slower than 1600 fps but may over expand well below 2800 fps. Handgun bullets are designed to expand at MUCH slower speeds. Other premium bullets need to impact at 2000-2200 fps or they won't expand but will stay together and not over expand even if they impact at speeds well over 3000 fps.
Virtually every time you hear about a bullet failing the bullet didn't fail. Someone just asked that bullet to do a job it wasn't designed for. If you're shooting a 300 WM with common 150 gr bullets at 3300 fps they will likely blow up at close range and not penetrate enough. That same bullet at 300 yards has slowed down to the point where it will work. Of if fired from a 308 at 2800 fps.
And then some animals just don't want to die. I've seen deer shot with 223's that dropped in their tracks. I've seen deer with a 165 gr 30-06 bullet penetrate both lungs, leave a 3" exit hole on the other side and still run over 100 yards before falling.
VoodooMountain
Member
There are too many variables to dictate a firm number.
Something often overlooked is the energy TRANFER upon bullet impact due to bullet disruption.
A 300 WM bullet may have more energy at impact than a 25-06 bullet but if that 300 WM is a 220 gr fmj bullet and the 25-06 bullet is a 100 gr cup and core bullet you will almost always see a very dissimilar outcome.
It is why the 243, 25-06, 257 roberts, and 270 were so effective on deer size game for so long. Higher velocity, softer/frangible bullets that disrupt quickly in the animal (while also penetrating deep enough)and easy to shoot accurately in part due to low recoil.
This is how the Nosler Partition came to be. A softer nose that disrupts with a base that will penetrate.
In other words, for a deer,, I would rather have a 100gr speer hot cor land in the lungs from a 25-06 than a 180gr Barnes TSX from a 300WM. I would even argue the 25 bullet in the lungs would often be better than that heavy TSX in the shoulder.
Bullet disruption allows damage to occur to vital organs which overlaps shot placement
Something often overlooked is the energy TRANFER upon bullet impact due to bullet disruption.
A 300 WM bullet may have more energy at impact than a 25-06 bullet but if that 300 WM is a 220 gr fmj bullet and the 25-06 bullet is a 100 gr cup and core bullet you will almost always see a very dissimilar outcome.
It is why the 243, 25-06, 257 roberts, and 270 were so effective on deer size game for so long. Higher velocity, softer/frangible bullets that disrupt quickly in the animal (while also penetrating deep enough)and easy to shoot accurately in part due to low recoil.
This is how the Nosler Partition came to be. A softer nose that disrupts with a base that will penetrate.
In other words, for a deer,, I would rather have a 100gr speer hot cor land in the lungs from a 25-06 than a 180gr Barnes TSX from a 300WM. I would even argue the 25 bullet in the lungs would often be better than that heavy TSX in the shoulder.
Bullet disruption allows damage to occur to vital organs which overlaps shot placement
lysanderxiii
Member
602 ft-lbs of energy, that is the same amount of energy as being bowled over by a 300 pound linebacker at a half-sprint (8 mph), that type of impact happens hundreds of thousands of times every Saturday and Sunday hasn't killed anyone to my knowledge. So, energy is only part of the equation, and a small part, as there are many ways to deliver 600 foot-pounds of energy to someone and most won't be fatal.Handgun bullets don't .... (generalization missing the disclaimer - most)
Below 2,200 fps no whatever (as if it is like at 2,175 nothing happens, but at 2,200 magic
It is all about penetration & expansion, temporary cavity doesn't matter
Then we have this example
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/
4'' barrel Remington 125 SJHP 357 Mag - 13.6'' / .54 - 1,473 fps - 602# KE
4'' barrel Remington 158 LSWCHP +P - 13.4'' / .56 - 921 fps - 298# KE
Penetration & expansion in gel is near identical for those two bullets.
I (and probably most other people) think 357 Mag has better ASAP potential than the 38 special - it has 2x the KE.
Street results (anecdotal) showed 357 Mag to have better incapacitation potential than 38 special.
If one believes KE doesn't matter and it is all about penetration & expansion in gel then they think that 38 special equal in ASAP potential to that 357 Mag; I don't.
In this comparison equal shot placement was/is assumed and I should not have to say it, but now I did; I preempted the "its all about shot placement" correction.
Also, there is another problem with this logic. You used muzzle velocity, and therefore calculated muzzle energy, not impact energy. Since the energy equation is based on velocity squared, the 158 grain bullet will loose energy faster as it goes down range, even though the 158 grain bullet has a slightly better BC. So, while a laboratory gel test done at a range of two or three feet may show similar expansion and penetration, .38 Spl will rapidly drop out of the favorable expansion velocity.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
It also happens on Friday nights where in 2021, 4 football players were killed by traumatic brain injuries from such impacts. A total of 13 college, high school and middle school students were killed in 2021 via football. There have been several years that were worse, but for the most part, deaths were mostly single digits after '76, mostly.
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After hunting with a buddy of mine, him shooting a .308 with 150 or 165 gr. softpoints and me shooting 6.5 Grendel with Hornady SST 123 gr. bullets, the .308 having bullet diameter, weight, and velocity greater than that of my Grendel, and yet when we necropsied the hog, the .308 had 13" of penetration and the Grendel had 12.5". Damage was comparable from what we could tell. This illustrated for me a couple of salient points touched upon (if indirectly) by those above that it isn't just about energy or velocity or caliber size, but also bullet performance (ball, soft point, petal expanding, frangible, etc.).
I am not suggesting that my Grendel is comparable to a .308, but am suggesting that with the right bullets, their terminal performance can overlap considerably despite the disparities in terms of gross tissue damage of the wound channel.
When it comes to hydrostatic shock shutting down the CNS, something that isn't predictable by anyone or any caliber I have seen (at least not yet), .308 does have the advantage as it does seem to happen more commonly with it over the Grendel. This is touched upon by VoodooMountain. The higher velocity the bullet, the greater your chances for hydrostatic shock.
Getting to the OP's example of disparity of calibers where the weaker caliber seemed to perform better, as noted, no 2 shots are ever the same. Two of you made lung shots on deer and for one the deer dropped and for the other it ran. Let me ask you this. Was the deer inhaling or exhaling when the shot hit? The theory is that the deer will be more likely to drop and drop faster if it is on the exhale. I don't know if that is even remotely true, but it is yet another potential side of a multi-sided problem.
Not necessarily, Increasing the surface area of a JHP hollow cavity will lower the expansion velocity needed for reliable bullet expansion. A prime example of this is Speer Gold Dots, 125gr Gold Dots designed for the .357Sig have a very shallow cavity designed for 357S velocities. 124gr Gold Dots have a deeper hollow cavity (more surface area) and they are designed for 9mm velocities. For 38 Special, the ogive can be designed for performance because there is no need to compromise for pistol's magazine to chamber function for reliable feeding. The hollow cavity for the 38Special/135 gr Gold Dot is wide and deep, it's designed for 38 Special short barrel revolvers.
9mm 124gr +P Gold Dot impacting four layer denim at 1220fps,
Conversely, see what happens when a 125gr Gold Dot, shallow cavity (less hollow cavity volume the 124gr GD above - for faster velocities), designed for 357Sig velocities is handloaded in a 9mm, impact velocity 1276fps, 56fps faster than the 124gr GD,
Since pocket 9mms have very short barrels, some JHP bullets don't expand because the impact velocity is too low, resulting in FMJ wound ballistics..
For all practical purposes, wound ballistics have little to do with KE, fluid dynamics, bullet momentum is the key factor in service caliber bullet penetration, this has been known for many years, think Duncan MacPherson's research and 10% ordnance gelatin that's used for establishing FBI protocol.
I've had many conversations with Schwartz over the years, his research is solid. From a Western Powder blog,
An Expert Answers on Wound Ballistics
Which is a better predictor of penetration, momentum or kinetic energy? Assuming similar bullet performance. ThanksP. McMullen
Labby had to defer on this one. But Luckily, Charles Schwartz, the author of Quantitative Ammunition Selection was available to field the question.
Momentum is what determines penetration. From page 7 of Quantitative Ammunition Selection:
”While a projectile in motion possesses both momentum and kinetic energy, the penetration of a transient projectile through a homogenous fluid or hydrocolloidal medium constitutes an inelastic collision mandating that it be treated as a momentum transaction. Therefore, a momentum-based analysis of projectile motion is the most equitable approach in constructing a terminal ballistic performance model.”
Newton’s second law of motion, F = ma, is what applies in the case of bullet penetration of gelatin or soft tissue.
Here is a brief, but good, explanation: Impact depth – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:.
Linebacker collisions is a moot example for ballistic studies.
Judging how good a bullet is by what an animal does after being hit is not a good metric. I've seen heart shot deer run 1/4 mile before they drop. Or drop in their tracks with the same shot placement using the same bullet. Animals do funny things when hit and there is no rhyme or reason to it.
The deer that ran 1/4 mile had no heart left. The 150gr 308 Barnes TTSX blew it into several large chunks, and he still ran. Another deer, same trip, was hit in the exact same spot and dropped in their tracks...
The deer that ran 1/4 mile had no heart left. The 150gr 308 Barnes TTSX blew it into several large chunks, and he still ran. Another deer, same trip, was hit in the exact same spot and dropped in their tracks...
Unfortunately, clear gelatin is not close to representing the 10% ordnance gelatin used for FBI protocol, therefore, it has no scientific basis, but clear gello does have entertainment value.Handgun bullets don't .... (generalization missing the disclaimer - most)
Below 2,200 fps no whatever (as if it is like at 2,175 nothing happens, but at 2,200 magic
It is all about penetration & expansion, temporary cavity doesn't matter
Then we have this example
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/
4'' barrel Remington 125 SJHP 357 Mag - 13.6'' / .54 - 1,473 fps - 602# KE
4'' barrel Remington 158 LSWCHP +P - 13.4'' / .56 - 921 fps - 298# KE
Penetration & expansion in gel is near identical for those two bullets.
I (and probably most other people) think 357 Mag has better ASAP potential than the 38 special - it has 2x the KE.
Street results (anecdotal) showed 357 Mag to have better incapacitation potential than 38 special.
If one believes KE doesn't matter and it is all about penetration & expansion in gel then they think that 38 special equal in ASAP potential to that 357 Mag; I don't.y
In this comparison equal shot placement was/is assumed and I should not have to say it, but now I did; I preempted the "its all about shot placement" correction.
Agree with the .357mag, good feedback results regarding involuntary incapacitation, we carried Remington 158gr SJHPs, and I was very happy when we transitioned from Smith 28s (shaving lead) to 19s.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Excellent observation. While not deer, I have shot hogs through the heart that made it close to 100 yards. Same with double lung shots, though in most cases, it would be much less. I have single lunged a hog that I thought should have been a double lung shot (missed far side lung) that ran over 400 yards. Liver shots can definitely run more than 100 yards, though usually less.
If the shot doesn't do significant direct or indirect upper CNS damage, expect the animal to run. If they don't, so much the better.
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nettlle
Contributing Member
It just depends where you hit them. From bow and arrow up to a 12 gauge slug and everything in between. That has been my experience. And I am very familiar with food pounds of energy. Foot pounds of energy may not be a perfect standard but is certainly better than no standard at all.
Very good input it’s very helpful reading all your different angles. I will say every time I hear a 45 cowboy load clang on a steel plate I’m glad I’m not on the receiving end and also don’t think it’d have a problem with any deer around my area even though energy wise it’s a pussycat
Chuck R.
Member
An other good example is the Berger line of hunting bullets:
VLD Hunting Bullets
Berger VLD hunting bullets are produced with one very important feature in mind: Performance. The Berger VLD bullets have a boat tail and secant ogive.
bergerbullets.com
They're one of my favorite examples of why I don't worship SD when it comes to hunting bullets.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
A note on VLD-hunting bullets...I found in the 6.5 Grendel that overpenetration wasn't uncommon, even on larger hogs. They did NOT dump all their energy inside the animal. It is a phenomenally devastating bullet, but in this caliber I don't think it was attaining the velocity needed to come apart violently enough to stay inside of the animal. My point? For a given model of bullet, performance may vary across calibers, despite what the ads say.
YouTube age-restricted the video because of the blood and such (so you have to watch on YouTube), but if you want to see Grendel VLD-Hunting 130 gr. results, here you go...
www.youtube.com
YouTube age-restricted the video because of the blood and such (so you have to watch on YouTube), but if you want to see Grendel VLD-Hunting 130 gr. results, here you go...
Berger VLD-Hunting Bullet Results on 18 Hogs
Results are presented on the performance of Berger VLD-Hunting on 18 hogs shot in Texas during Spring 2016. For Berger's description of their bullets and per...
www.youtube.com
Handgun bullets don't .... (generalization missing the disclaimer - most)
Below 2,200 fps no whatever (as if it is like at 2,175 nothing happens, but at 2,200 magic
It is all about penetration & expansion, temporary cavity doesn't matter
Then we have this example
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/
4'' barrel Remington 125 SJHP 357 Mag - 13.6'' / .54 - 1,473 fps - 602# KE
4'' barrel Remington 158 LSWCHP +P - 13.4'' / .56 - 921 fps - 298# KE
Penetration & expansion in gel is near identical for those two bullets.
I (and probably most other people) think 357 Mag has better ASAP potential than the 38 special - it has 2x the KE.
Street results (anecdotal) showed 357 Mag to have better incapacitation potential than 38 special.
If one believes KE doesn't matter and it is all about penetration & expansion in gel then they think that 38 special equal in ASAP potential to that 357 Mag; I don't.
In this comparison equal shot placement was/is assumed and I should not have to say it, but now I did; I preempted the "its all about shot placement" correction.
Fatal? I'm talking about speed of incapacitation, not fatality.
I cited muzzle energy because penetration and expansion in gel are essentially the same; most would agree that 357 Mag is more likely to incapacitate quicker.
I'll try again. This is for the people who think KE doesn't matter, that its all about penetration & expansion in gel. Example #2:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/
380 Hornady 90 gr. FTX Critical Defense - 13.2'' / .52 - 910 fps - 166# KE
4'' barrel Remington 125 SJHP 357 Mag - 13.6'' / .54 - 1,473 fps - 602# KE
Very similar penetration & expansion in gel, so if KE doesn't matter that 380 has about the same ASAP incapacitation potential as that 357 Mag
; I think not.
.308 Norma
Member
"That's for sure and for certain." (Quigley)
I've told many times about how the doe mule deer (my first deer) ran almost a hundred yards uphill after I put a 150gr Remington CoreLock from my then new .308 Winchester clear through both of her lungs AND her heart. Then, after she stopped, I put 3 more of those bullets through both of her lungs and her demolished heart because I didn't know any better - I thought I was missing that deer because I'd been told by "old timers" that a .308 Winchester will "knock em down," while the "old 30-30s they used to use, wouldn't."
I'm an "old timer" myself now. I'm 75, and one thing nobody will ever hear me say is that "such and such" a cartridge, or that "such and such" a bullet will always "knock em down," while some other cartridge or bullet won't. In 60+ years of deer hunting, I've seen many a deer that appeared to be knocked off their feet when hit, and I've seen some that ran a ways after being solidly hit too.
Captcurt
Member
This reminds me of the 44 Ruger Carbine that I had. I was buying a box 240 gr CoreLocks when an old man commented that all you had to do was hit a deer on the ear and it would knock him down. I had a broadside shot at a spike at the perfect range of 30 yards and slipped a bullet behind the shoulder. He went 100 yards leaving 2 blood trails. It looked like you took 2 bottles of blood and walked while holding them at arm's length. So much for knock down."That's for sure and for certain." (Quigley)
I've told many times about how the doe mule deer (my first deer) ran almost a hundred yards uphill after I put a 150gr Remington CoreLock from my then new .308 Winchester clear through both of her lungs AND her heart. Then, after she stopped, I put 3 more of those bullets through both of her lungs and her demolished heart because I didn't know any better - I thought I was missing that deer because I'd been told by "old timers" that a .308 Winchester will "knock em down," while the "old 30-30s they used to use, wouldn't."
I'm an "old timer" myself now. I'm 75, and one thing nobody will ever hear me say is that "such and such" a cartridge, or that "such and such" a bullet will always "knock em down," while some other cartridge or bullet won't. In 60+ years of deer hunting, I've seen many a deer that appeared to be knocked off their feet when hit, and I've seen some that ran a ways after being solidly hit too.
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Agreed
.308 Norma
Member
MarshallDodge
Member
I shot a raccoon up in a tree with a non expanding, 124 grain, 9mm hollowpoint. It didn't hardly flinch. My friend took a shot with his 17 HMR and dropped it immediately.
That little 17 expended everything it had on entrance where my 9mm just pushed a little tissue out of the way when passing through.
That little 17 expended everything it had on entrance where my 9mm just pushed a little tissue out of the way when passing through.
230RN
2A was "political" when it was first adopted.
Purely theoretical, but it strikes me the higher energy bullets might have more of a numbing effect, allowing the game to move before the pain develops, whereas the lighter loads are "felt" right away and cause a mental shock from the pain, causing the animal to drop right there.
Just a guess FWIW.
Just a guess FWIW.
Captcurt
Member
You may be onto something. I have only taken 2 deer with the 257 Weatherby, but both dropped like a rock. I was pushing a 110gr Accubond at around 3500 fps. I never even saw them kick.
crstrode
Member
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2008
- Messages
- 362
I have personally witnessed and/or administered instantaneous death to 1500 pound steers dozens of times with a 22lr having a muzzle energy of around 70 foot-pounds.
Similarly, I have personally witnessed and/or administered many shots of over 5000 foot-pounds of energy (with my car or pickup) to animals of less than 150 pounds that scampered off.
Similarly, I have personally witnessed and/or administered many shots of over 5000 foot-pounds of energy (with my car or pickup) to animals of less than 150 pounds that scampered off.
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