Bullet in a 1 in 60 twist?

[brewer12345]

Thinking about a second hand 45 percussion rifle that is slow twist. I have no doubt it will shoot round ball just fine, but that wouldn't be legal for deer in my state. Its not a complete deal breaker if I can't hunt deer with it, but it would be nice to have the option. I would need to use a conical to make it legal. Would this twist be likely to shoot a 200 grain REAL OK?

 

[desmobob]

I tried the REAL projectile in my 1:73" twist Hawken and they keyholed. Maybe your 1:60 twist would be enough. Only one way to find out...

 

[hawg]

Nope. A hollow based thin skirted minie will work as long as you don't go over about 65 grains of powder. Much more than that and you will blow the skirt.

 

[brewer12345]

Nope. A hollow based thin skirted minie will work as long as you don't go over about 65 grains of powder. Much more than that and you will blow the skirt.

OK. That or something like a buffalo ball-et.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Round ball would be my choice.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

While it's a round ball twist a bullet in a sabot might work very well with load development. As was stated above, you won't know if you don't try.

 

[hawg]

OK. That or something like a buffalo ball-et.

Do they still make those? Did they ever make them in a.45?

 

[brewer12345]

Do they still make those? Did they ever make them in a.45?

Search me. I am sure one of the custom mold makers could do whatever I wanted.

 

[hawg]

Search me. I am sure one of the custom mold makers could do whatever I wanted.

An expensive gamble just to see if it works. I've heard they work very well in a1:48 twist but will it work in a 1:60? I'm sure people would like to hear your results.

 

[AntiqueSledMan]

We loaded the LEE 452-200-RF in my brothers .50 cal. Lyman Great Plains Rifle
with a harvester sabot, propelled by 100gr of 3F Triple Seven.
The 1:60 twist it seemed to maintain a straight shooting combination
however, I doubt a longer bullet would fly as true.

AntiqueSledMan.

 

[PapaG]

My 1 in 66 Douglas barrel flint lock has put three TC maxi balls in three and a half inches at 100 yards. Took 100 grains of powder to do it. Much less and 12" was a good group. Barrel has deep grooves and I think it took the heavy load to make it obturate.

 

[Black Jack Shellac]

I have used the 200 gr REAl bullet in 45. It was in a CVA kentucky with a twist of 1 in 66 if I remember right. They shot ok no tumbling. I didn't give them any kind of load development. A little work could have worked wonders. I had just got the gun and the rust pits were still a problem.

 

[Patocazador]

Just use a patched round ball .. that's what it was designed for.

 

[ThomasT]

Just use a patched round ball .. that's what it was designed for.

The OP stated he has to use a bullet for his gun to be legal to hunt with in his state.

I have shot both the Lee REAL 320gr and the Lee Improved Minnie (380gr) from my Greta Plains rifle with a 1/60 twist and they both shot well enough for 100 yard hunting. I believe the Civil War muskets were 1/60 twist and those big 600gr Minnie balls just fine. But you won't know until you try it. I cast the Lee 200gr REAL bullets and shoot those in my 45 caliber Cabelas Hawken. They shoot very well from the 1/48 twist.

 

[Acorn Mush]

The OP seems to be interested in using the rifle for deer, as he stated that round ball would not be a legal hunting projectile in his state. I suggest he try the 200 grain Lee REAL bullet. If it keyholes, putting a cardboard or felt wad between the bullet and the powder may help.

 

[mcb]

The shortest/lightest bullet you can find, shot as fast as you can safely shoot it will have the best chance of being stable.

 

[TheOutlawKid]

Mr. Acorn mush makes a great point...using a felt wad(s) or over powder card can make a world of difference in accuracy and seems to resolve a lot of keyhole issues. You make way to experiment with lubed and dry felt wads or cardboard disk.

 

[desmobob]

How would a wad improve stability of a bullet that is too long to stabilize with a rifle's twist rate? (I'm not challenging the statement; I'm curious about the theory/reason.)

 

[Gus Chiggins]

What about a maxi-ball? Would that be legal?

 

[hawg]

What about a maxi-ball? Would that be legal?

A maxi ball is just a solid based conical. IMO it wouldn't work very well. A minie will work because the base is hollow and all the weight is in front of the bullet. It acts more like a round ball in slow twists. The original 1861 Springfield had a 1:72 twist.

 

[brewer12345]

What about a maxi-ball? Would that be legal?

Any projectile of at least 170 grains would be legal, but no sabots. They did this to effectively require a minimum 50 cal round ball or 45 cal conical for deer. For elk you must have a 50 conical or 54 ball (or bigger).

 

[TheOutlawKid]

How would a wad improve stability of a bullet that is too long to stabilize with a rifle's twist rate? (I'm not challenging the statement; I'm curious about the theory/reason.)

It works by helping reduce blow by aka gas cutting. When black powder burns the gasses push the projectile out but some of the gasses escape around the projectile and through the rifling causing the projectile to tumble or not be as accurate. Using a wad helps prevent the blow by/gas cutting and therefor the projectile isnt disturbed while traveling through the barrel...also can help speed and deviation a bit by keeping almost all the gasses behind the projectile where they belong.

 

[desmobob]

It works by helping reduce blow by aka gas cutting. When black powder burns the gasses push the projectile out but some of the gasses escape around the projectile and through the rifling causing the projectile to tumble or not be as accurate. Using a wad helps prevent the blow by/gas cutting and therefor the projectile isnt disturbed while traveling through the barrel...also can help speed and deviation a bit by keeping almost all the gasses behind the projectile where they belong.

A thin layer of felt or cardboard may keep approximately10,000 psi of gas pressure from escaping around a bullet before obturation?

Again... I'm not challenging the statement, just trying to get an understanding of the process. I'd guess it's certainly possible that the felt or cardboard would be compressed into the tiny spaces around the bullet and seal things up under pressure.

I have two muzzle-loading rifles and both of them are slow twist. One of them, a Pedersoli 3-band Enfield, will shoot Minnie bullets well. I'd like to be able to get my other rifle, an old Armsport Hawken, to shoot something heavier than a round ball...

 

[brewer12345]

A thin layer of felt or cardboard may keep approximately10,000 psi of gas pressure from escaping around a bullet before obturation?

Again... I'm not challenging the statement, just trying to get an understanding of the process. I'd guess it's certainly possible that the felt or cardboard would be compressed into the tiny spaces around the bullet and seal things up under pressure.

I have two muzzle-loading rifles and both of them are slow twist. One of them, a Pedersoli 3-band Enfield, will shoot Minnie bullets well. I'd like to be able to get my other rifle, an old Armsport Hawken, to shoot something heavier than a round ball...

Be as incredulous as you like, but I have a couple rifles that throw Conicals all over the place without a wad, in a tight little group with a wad. I have one that only shoots prb well with a wad.

I bought the rifle and so will find out about Conicals in it this spring.

 

[desmobob]

Be as incredulous as you like, but I have a couple rifles that throw Conicals all over the place without a wad, in a tight little group with a wad.

I wouldn't say incredulous; more like surprised and thinking out loud... I hope it works in your new rifle, and in my old one.

I'm anxious to do some experimenting with patched bullets in my trusty old Hawken!