Bullet weight and recoil

[MoreIsLess]

I have a 9mm Sig 226 and I am having problems with recoil management. I've tried dry firing to no avail and buying a .22 is not an option currently. I thought I read somewhere that a heavier bullet would produce less recoil. This seems totally the opposite of what I would expect. If the above is true, I thought I would switch from 115gr FMJ to 124gr or 147gr.

This is for target shooting. Ironically, I have less trouble managing the recoil on my M&P 45 shooting 230gr FMJ than I do shooting 115gr from my 9mm Sig.

 

[gathert]

A 147g is more of a "push" compared to the 115g "snap." If you are having recoil trouble with a 9mm, check your grip first.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48

 

[Sam1911]

Can you describe the problem you're having? 9mm being fired through a 34 oz. fullsize handgun shouldn't be very difficult to shoot.

Yes, bigger and slower feels different from faster and quicker, but it won't make a night-and-day difference. Probably something else going on.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Most folks feel that bullet momentum is proprotional to felt recoil.

Buffalo Bore (for example) offers a snappy little 9mm+P+ 95 gr going at 1550 fps. About 0.65 lb-sec of momentum. And the recoil's going to feel quite sudden.

Contast that with their 147gr +P+ @ 1175: 0.77 lb-sec. However, many heavy-bullet 9mms are in fact "subsonic" rounds: maybe 147 gr @ 990 fps, for about (guess what?) 0.65 lb-sec, again.

I doubt anyone wants to drop the momentum much below that; might start making the gun unreliable by slowing down the slide too much.

 

[MoreIsLess]

Can you describe the problem you're having? 9mm being fired through a 34 oz. fullsize handgun shouldn't be very difficult to shoot.

Yes, bigger and slower feels different from faster and quicker, but it won't make a night-and-day difference. Probably something else going on.

I tend to dip the gun or push it down and away. I know one thing, I don't have this much problem shooting 230gr with my M&P 45c and its a smaller, lighter gun.

Before you suggest dry firing, I've tried that. I can dry fire all day without doing this and I can do the "dime on the front sight" routine just fine. Buying a .22 is not an option right now, either.

 

[xXxplosive]

So you have no trouble with the .45acp and your having recoil problems with a 9mm......Hmmm.
I'd be sticking with the .45acp anyway.....why bother with a 9mm....?

 

[gathert]

Other helpful pictures. I tend to break my wrist down with Glocks only. All other guns are fine. Could be the gun for you, like Glocks are for me.

 

[Ben86]

Not the wheel.

This is for target shooting. Ironically, I have less trouble managing the recoil on my M&P 45 shooting 230gr FMJ than I do shooting 115gr from my 9mm Sig.

That's really odd. You feel you have less recoil shooting a light, polymer .45 than a relatively heavy, metallic 9mm. I know the bore axis of the P226 is a bit high, but that is a heavy gun. Have you really paid close attention to your grip with the P226? Make sure it's high, tight and pushed out aggressively against the recoil. You're not using a super light recoil spring are you?

 

[9mmepiphany]

I find it interesting how these issues seem to come in cycles on the forum. Everyone seems to think they are the same thing, for whatever reason, and give the same advice ...be it dryfire, snap caps, balancing dimes. Often this falls under the: If you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail category. I have an idea of what the problem is, but I'd like to get more information first.

I am having problems with recoil management

and

I tend to dip the gun or push it down and away

aren't the same thing. The hint comes from:

Before you suggest dry firing, I've tried that. I can dry fire all day without doing this and I can do the "dime on the front sight" routine just fine

Which would lead me to believe it is an anticipation issue...but not anticipation of recoil.

OP - can you describe how you are having an issue managing recoil?

Is it jumping out of your hand or making it hard to get back on target?
Which model 226 are you shooting?
How smooth/light is the SA trigger?

It isn't uncommon for a M&P45c to have less perceived recoil than a SIG 226. The M&P is one of the lightest recoiling .45s on the market. It has more to do with bore line and dwell time, than it has to do with weight.

I suspect it is an issue with grip and trigger management.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Bullet weight and recoil PERCEPTION is a personal thing.
It depends on the LOAD, the gun, the person etc.

BTW, just got lectured on the wheel being for bullseye ie. one handed fire?

 

[Got_Lead?]

Lighter boolits have less recoil. I shoot a light lead load of 3.4 grains Titegroup behind a 120 grain cast lead boolit, it's very accurate from the 226, and recoil is mild.

Relax and try some ball and dummy, using dummy rounds in the magazine mixed in with live ones, snap caps work well as the dummies.

You won't know when it'll fire, and when the hammer will fall on a dummy round. Try to relax, and concentrate on a smooth trigger pull, the sights should not move when the hammer falls.

Revolvers work well for the ball and dummy task, using a mix of fired cases, and live ammo.

 

[ku4hx]

I have a 9mm Sig 226 and I am having problems with recoil management. I've tried dry firing to no avail and buying a .22 is not an option currently. I thought I read somewhere that a heavier bullet would produce less recoil. This seems totally the opposite of what I would expect. If the above is true, I thought I would switch from 115gr FMJ to 124gr or 147gr.

This is for target shooting. Ironically, I have less trouble managing the recoil on my M&P 45 shooting 230gr FMJ than I do shooting 115gr from my 9mm Sig.

All other things being equal, a lighter bullet produces less recoil. That's a law of physics in application. But, perceived recoil, i.e. felt recoil, is another thing entirely having a lot to do with many things other than just mass and the conservation of momentum.

Some rounds will produce a more prolonged "shove" and not a sudden "slap". Generally, heavier bullets with a charge of slower burning powder produces that "shove". And that shove come across generally as less felt recoil. Recoil spring weights can change the way recoil feels too.

The 45 ACP in its "standard" loading of a 230 grain bullet produces that shove ... generally. It's neither a high pressure nor a high velocity load and it is a less "snappy" round. But if you put that "shove" round into a lighter gun, things change.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

BTW, just got lectured on the wheel being for bullseye ie. one handed fire?

While the chart is for one-handed shooting, it can still be of use in diagnosing some problems associated with two-handed shooting.W

Folks who shoot with both hands can still make some of the same mistakes it helps diagnose, and the strong hand often plays a bigger role in the "grip" than you'd think (i.e., things aren't always as "balanced" as they should be).

Finger placement on the trigger can still have a negative effect, you can still push when anticipating recoil, etc. whether you're using one hand or two, and some folks can still JERK when firing the gun, etc.

Whether you're using the Isoceles grip/stance or Weaver grip/stance probably can affect results, and the wheel would be more useful in some situations than others.

 

[Constrictor]

heavier bullet heavier recoil

 

[9mmepiphany]

While the chart is for one-handed shooting, it can still be of use in diagnosing some problems associated with two-handed shooting.W

Folks who shoot with both hands can still make some of the same mistakes it helps diagnose, and the strong hand often plays a bigger role in the "grip" than you'd think (i.e., things aren't always as "balanced" as they should be).

Finger placement on the trigger can still have a negative effect, you can still push when anticipating recoil, etc. whether you're using one hand or two, and some folks can still JERK when firing the gun, etc.

Whether you're using the Isoceles grip/stance or Weaver grip/stance probably can affect results, and the wheel would be more useful in some situations than others.

OK...you've motivated me to come up with a wheel that represents a diagnostic chart for two handed shooting.

I'll have to consider if I want one for the Weaver grip and the Isosceles grip...I'm not even going to attempt one for the Locked Thumbs grip.

But it won't be coming soon.
1. I have a lot of things on the front burner right now.
2. Spring break for by 10 year old starts Friday.
3. My ability to manipulate graphics isn't great

 

[sugarmaker]

To the OP's original question, with the same gun and approx. same powder charge, the recoil is proportional to bullet weight times energy.

So, to get an idea:

115 gr at 335 ft.lbs = 38,525
147 gr at 295 ft.lbs = 43,365

divide 43,365 / 38,525 = 1.13 so about 13% more recoil from the heavier round in this case.