JFrank
Member
That wasn’t necessarily posted for anyone in particular, and it wasn’t just about tuners but more about nodes and anti nodes and how to interpret them. I don’t use tuners either but I’m getting better at reading anti nodes.
Bullets matter!
- Thread starter JEBruns
- Start date
JFrank
Member
I’ll even post this again, I see two nodes and two anti nodes on this one charge ladder. Both are about 3% apart. I’m being slightly critic but I think its worth the time to interpret them.
I’ve already posted far more than I’m comfortable with so I’ll stop now.
J
I’ve already posted far more than I’m comfortable with so I’ll stop now.
J
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OP
OP
JEBruns
Member
Thanks, but while I appreciate the discussion, I was really not looking for an in depth discussion on developing the load. Only how differently the bullets grouped using the same powder/loads.
And sorry for the slow responses. I'm in our RV down at our club's dirt bike camp, helping run our 49th annual enduro here in the Ozarks. So lots of woods time, not much internet time for the next few days.
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JFrank
Member
This is awesome’ four pages of useless blather responding to a thread. LMAO brother you made my day..
MarshallDodge
Member
Garbage in = Garbage out
FMJ bullets in general, even if Berger made them, are not consistent. You could go through all the steps of processing a perfect case, using the perfect powder charge with the best primer in the world, but the results will always have a wide dispersion if you are using a bullet with inconsistencies.
FMJ bullets in general, even if Berger made them, are not consistent. You could go through all the steps of processing a perfect case, using the perfect powder charge with the best primer in the world, but the results will always have a wide dispersion if you are using a bullet with inconsistencies.
irishlad
Contributing Member
Yup, I believe it was Varminterror who posted this video awhile back on another thread.
1. Combustion
2. Harmonics
3. Consistent BC
Precision reloading is easy. YOU complicate it!
We as humans have a tendency to complicate things, and reloading is no different. For some reason, we think that the more complicated it is, the better the ...
www.youtube.com
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MarshallDodge
Member
I like Eric's videos.Varm
Yup, I believe it was Varminterror who posted this video awhile back on another thread.
1. Combustion
2. Harmonics
3. Consistent BC
Precision reloading is easy. YOU complicate it!
We as humans have a tendency to complicate things, and reloading is no different. For some reason, we think that the more complicated it is, the better the ...
Eric is right, if you want 1/4 MOA or better, go buy Berger and Lapua, and build $5K rifles.
What he didn't address is those that don't want to spend $1-2 per round when out shooting.
Gun owners in general like to get the best bang for their buck. I want a factory rifle that shoots 1/4 MOA with ammo that I paid 20 cents a round, then I want to get on THR and brag about it
JFrank
Member
Well the OP’s top row were 52 gr Sierra Match Kings ( a good bullet) shot from a quality firearm, so in my mind this is perfect example of a poor powder/ charge rate combination and could very easily show 4/5 of those targets in an anti node /scatter node .
we’ll never know because the charges are not listed and the OP bailed out.
I’m still chuckling…
we’ll never know because the charges are not listed and the OP bailed out.
I’m still chuckling…
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Varminterror
Member
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This is one of the most tired paradigms among the shooting world...
What works for a $5k rifle works for a $500 rifle too. But chasing smoke and making up theories for how to imagine one load is better than another doesn't work for either of them.
Chasing magic which doesn't make a racecar go any faster won't make a Honda Civic go any faster either.
Varminterror
Member
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- Messages
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FULLY agree with this...
I asked on Page 1:
To which the answer was:
I'm just realizing - but on Page 1 - I responded to THIS goal stated by the OP that NOTHING on the board appears to want to deliver to the need. Scrap the whole thing...
MarshallDodge
Member
Tired how?
You keep wanting to bring the discussion back to load development and statistics. I think we understand your point.
This thread is about how bullets matter, which applies to all rifles when shooting for accuracy.
@jmorris has a great pic of targets at 100 yards (IIRC) where all he changes is the bullet. FMJ vs a good bullet (IIRC again), really shows the difference.
Bullets definitely matter, something we go over here again and again with folks new to choosing bullets for accuracy. The OP definitely knows this of course.
kmw1954
Member
It all matters. The bullet, the powder, the brass, the gun. every single piece matters to make a whole.
Three years ago I started on my journey into center fire rifles. This was to get involved in a local range informal league. The rifle I started with I still have. It was a Savage Model 10 223 I purchased used with no real history on it. That spring I had a load I though was going to be fantastic, only it wasn't, yet it was and I didn't understand it yet. This was my first experience with temperature sensitive powder. As the summer progressed and it heated up when it finally reached 80* this load feel apart. I didn't know yet about reducing the charge to bring it back to a node. So I started over and changed powders.
The next spring I purchased another Savage with the intention of building a 6 BR Norma. Which got sidetracked back to another 223 because I got a deal on a barrel I couldn't pass up.
So right away I started working on a load and the first one was the one I shot the previous year in the Model 10. Again I learned quickly that that barrel did not like that bullet one bit. Even after trying 4 different speed powders. So that bullet shot lights out in my vision in one rifle but not worth a dam in the other.
Then this year I made a brass switch and after the 3rd firing it went to the dumpster. Some of it w/o ever being fired in my rifle. So yes, every piece of the puzzle makes a contribution to the end results. One bad piece can turn the whole into junk.
Three years ago I started on my journey into center fire rifles. This was to get involved in a local range informal league. The rifle I started with I still have. It was a Savage Model 10 223 I purchased used with no real history on it. That spring I had a load I though was going to be fantastic, only it wasn't, yet it was and I didn't understand it yet. This was my first experience with temperature sensitive powder. As the summer progressed and it heated up when it finally reached 80* this load feel apart. I didn't know yet about reducing the charge to bring it back to a node. So I started over and changed powders.
The next spring I purchased another Savage with the intention of building a 6 BR Norma. Which got sidetracked back to another 223 because I got a deal on a barrel I couldn't pass up.
So right away I started working on a load and the first one was the one I shot the previous year in the Model 10. Again I learned quickly that that barrel did not like that bullet one bit. Even after trying 4 different speed powders. So that bullet shot lights out in my vision in one rifle but not worth a dam in the other.
Then this year I made a brass switch and after the 3rd firing it went to the dumpster. Some of it w/o ever being fired in my rifle. So yes, every piece of the puzzle makes a contribution to the end results. One bad piece can turn the whole into junk.
JFrank
Member
Everyone makes mistakes, powder selection and charge rate are the number one component.
Get that part right and bullets don’t seem to matter near as much. Hunting rifles are a good example as I think I can tune a load using core loc’s about the same as Hornday SST’s
Get that part right and bullets don’t seem to matter near as much. Hunting rifles are a good example as I think I can tune a load using core loc’s about the same as Hornday SST’s
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Varminterror
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Tired in the way I described immediately thereafter - the processes which work for $5k rifles also work for $500 rifles. No sense in inventing a lot of voodoo to do nothing, just on the basis of “it’s a factory rifle, not a custom barrel.
It’s definitely easier to achieve a higher standard of performance with higher priced gear, but the road to get there is really the same - good bullets matched for your twist rate and case capacity, good barrels, good powders matched for the case capacity, expansion ratio, and bullet weight, good neck tension for consistent primary ignition, and life is simple.
No need to EVER delve into statistics - just recognize when it would take an analysis of variance to actually tell if something is different - and when it WOULD, do NOT do the ANOVA, but instead be happy that it’s NOT different and you can load anywhere on that map with the same results (or recognize that NONE of the groups achieve the goal and cut bait, because there aren’t any fish to be caught).
OP
OP
JEBruns
Member
I did not "bail out". I just don't care to get any more specific with the recipes. Sorry if that disappoints you.
kmw1954
Member
I can respect and appreciate that. I too have made many posted asking general questions only to be bombarded by the response, "We cant's help you id we don't have all the specifics." when the specifics have zero bearing on the question. And no, it's not just here on this forum nor does it pertain to just guns.
JFrank
Member
Nah’ I'm not disappointed , I think it’s kinda humorous that several members including myself began as you say a deep discussion on load development when you as the OP really were not interested in going that direction.
No matter there’s still readers that draw good information from these threads.
How’s the trail riding going ? Hope all is well.
J
Soonerpesek
Member
What I found humorous was the OP starting a thread about BULLET choice, and a few insist on making it something different (per usual)…
And then getting defensive when their “big” words and regurgitative responses don’t get taken as “THE ONLY WAY”……..
….
Ohhhhhhhh……………life is good…..!!…..in my tiny little world…
And then getting defensive when their “big” words and regurgitative responses don’t get taken as “THE ONLY WAY”……..
….Ohhhhhhhh……………life is good…..!!…..in my tiny little world…
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OP
OP
JEBruns
Member
Good. No injuries so far. We had the kids and super short races yesterday. We give all the kids free entry, a t-shirt and snacks. We really try hard to encourage the next generation of riders. The big race is today, starts a 8am (8:01 technically). 66 miles of rocky Ozark goodness! Weather is awesome for it. Thanks for asking.
OP
OP
JEBruns
Member
Personally, I think that is kind of harsh. I feel sure everyone that contributed was just trying to teach/help. I found the discussion to be interesting, and will dig in more once I get home from camp.
IWAC
Member
Yes, indeedy! Without bullets, guns are just noise!
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