Bullpups - the Concept

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Back when they first came on the market, a buddy of mine bought a Steyr AUG. I tried it for a couple of mag's worth, and didn't like the balance. Too muzzle-light to suit me. I won't argue against utility in certain military or police situations, but I see none for the world in which I, myself, live.
 
I like a heavier rifle too, it certainly makes traditional marksmanship a little easier. The ACR is often times criticized for its muzzle heaviness, something I don't have a problem with. I will say though, when carrying a rifle for days on end the lighter rifle wins as does the shorter rifle. That's why our military has moved away from 20" rifles to the M4 with a 14.5" barrel.

For a general purpose rifle I still like the rifle like the M4, ACR or SCAR. I've not closed the door to the bullpups but right now there isn't one on the market that grabs me. The Tavor might be the one, but I need to spend more time with it before I make that determination.
 
Just checked out your Youtube videos, very good info so I subcribed to your channel. They had a bullpup conversion for the mini-14 that I thought about doing but the rifle wasn't the greatest so I sold it. Wish I had kept it and done the concersion just for fun. Will be watching more of your videos.
 
I think the resistance to the bullpup concept is due to the fundamentally different evolutionary tack it is taking. From the ancient blunderbusses (blunderbi?) to the Garand, guns were designed to have spear-like ergonomics; very straight, and club-like (even when not used as clubs)

By focusing on the vertical dimension in a gun's design, rather than length and profile, you get bullpups that look...wrong compared to everything developed up to this point. It's like ranching giant grasshoppers instead of cattle ;)

I think bullpups are exciting from an engineer's perspective since they blow the doors off all conventional firearms wisdumb, allowing for unthinkable innovation. The old, crummy bullpups of '70s Europe people seem to enjoy denigrating are probably the reason a short carbine like the M4 became "acceptable" let alone desirable in this country.

On the video; I don't think I'd enjoy popping off rounds from inside my car. Gunsmoke smells like fun, but it also smells like sulfur :barf: and hot brass melting every surface sounds like no fun, either :uhoh:

Neither does bouncing brass off my face :D
"It doesn't hurt"
Really? I guess when you have a chin-cozy (beard), but that smell of burning hair must be annoying :p --Especially if you ever have a case-failure :what:

It seems like the thrust of the video is that the bullpup concept has a few problems (and that FNH is the only company working to correct them :neener:)

TCB
 
I've held and shouldered a few different styles of bullpups. I like the concept, the idea of maximizing efficiency of ergonomics. But in practice I have a few dislikes. I dislike the tendency of the muzzle to swing directly towards my face if the butt slips off my shoulder. I dislike the drawbacks of nearly every bullpup's trigger requiring extra linkages and hence a harder or sloppier trigger. I dislike the idea of having the receiver right against my face and neck if a bad round goes through and blows the gun up. I've seen enough pictures of Kb AR-15's to know I wouldn't want that pressed against my face, in the admittedly very unlikely chance it happens.
 
The first bullpup I ever saw was a Model 70 in .220 Swift. The idea was for a short but full-power varmint rifle which would not be awkward in the cab of a pickup.

The big difficulty was the trigger link-bar. Not stiff enough for a precise let-off.

My basic deal with a rifle is for hunting, and has been mostly walking hunting with offhand shots being commonplace. A rifle which is slightly muzzle-heavy works quite well; a bit steadier than the alternative. Doesn't hurt on shots on a running buck, either.
 
Not at all a fan of the bullpup design. A SBR M-4 would give the same advantages without the down sides of the bulpup.

Just my opinion.

Nice job on the video, by the way.

Jim
 
The ejection problem with the Steyr is simple get a left handed bolt. The Tavor which may or may not bo coming to a gun shop near you can be changed to let handed operation as well. The FS 2000 might be on my short list at a later date.
 
Not at all a fan of the bullpup design. A SBR M-4 would give the same advantages without the down sides of the bulpup.
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Except for that pesky loss of velocity with the shorter barrel.

The ejection problem with the Steyr is simple get a left handed bolt. The Tavor which may or may not bo coming to a gun shop near you can be changed to let handed operation as well. The FS 2000 might be on my short list at a later date.
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The ejection issue relates to having to switch to weak side to maximize cover from strong side. You ain't gonna be swapping bolts in combat.
 
I bet the bullpup guys claim that traditional rifles are too muzzle heavy. All about what you are used to.
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I have and shoot both. I think traditional rifles are too muzzle heavy, except off of sand bags. Short 16" barrels are ok. But traditional rifles with 20-24" barrels don't do me any favors when trying to shoot unsupported. It's not that I shoot a bullpup much better unsupported. But it's noticeably faster to swing the muzzle on target, less tiring, and my hold isn't as affected by wind. So there are obvious downsides 1. barrel not free floating on most bullpups, 2. not as stable off of sandbags, 3. ergonomic issues: mag change and ejection port. But there are some benefits, as well.

BTW, I don't consider AR carbines to handle/balance like traditional rifles. They are pretty muzzle light, esp with pencil barrels. So if it isn't broke, don't fix it? But there are some interesting bolt action bullpups out there for long range shooting, putting heavy 26-30" barrels in a relatively handy package. Not that either configuration would do you much good, trying to accurately shoot a 16-20 lb rifle, unsupported. But the overall length would be easier to transport.
 
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Great video; I subscribed a while ago and so far watched every video you've uploaded since. No regrets :D

That video did have me asking how much the aug could benefit from a brass deflector ala M16A2.

I've seen snap-on brass deflectors for the MSAR aug clone, but they were gigantic unsightly hunks of plastic.
 
Not at all a fan of the bullpup design. A SBR M-4 would give the same advantages without the down sides of the bulpup.

Just my opinion.

Nice job on the video, by the way.

Jim
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As you may be aware there are always trade-offs.

16" AUG pros from a civi pov:
1) same lenght as a 10.5 AR with stock fully collasped and NO NFA paperwork.
2) 16" barrel provides better effective range and more reliable terminal results.
3) stock trigger is on par with the stock AR
4) the AUG uses a proven and very reliable operating system. (for those wanting piston SBR ARs)

AR pros:
1) more and better aftermarket triggers available
2) stock lenght is ajustable plus aftermarket stock options
3) uses a familar layout so its easier on most shooters to learn
4) friendlier for left handed shooters or weak side use
 
Except for that pesky loss of velocity with the shorter barrel.
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If that was a concern, then no one would use handguns would they. (LOL)

I total agree with you Kurt.

Jim
 
If that was a concern, then no one would use handguns would they. (LOL)
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Handguns are used when rifles aren't practical. Who would choose a pistol to defend them self over a rifle?

I like the AUG and recently got an A3 but personally wish it were a tad lighter overall. I do however love the balance. The balance is also disrupted far less by a sound suppressor than a conventional rifle. No, the trigger aint great but its not a precision rifle either. I believe the bullpup does the best job of filling the most roles. The size allows for use in close quarters without impairing effectiveness at normal ranges. In addition, the longer barrel allows use in confined spaces with much less flash and noise than an SBR.
 
Back when they first came on the market, a buddy of mine bought a Steyr AUG. I tried it for a couple of mag's worth, and didn't like the balance. Too muzzle-light to suit me. I won't argue against utility in certain military or police situations, but I see none for the world in which I, myself, live.
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You've brought up a key point -- how well can you shoot a particular rifle. To me, one of the best shooting rifles in combat is the M1 Garand (and yes, I've actually used one in combat) because of its muzzle heavy attitude. It hangs well on target and swings smoothly.

Another point I noticed was in using the AUG to shoot out a vehicle window. If you're the driver, you don't shoot until the vehicle is forced to stop -- you drive and get the hell out of the killing zone.

If you are not the driver, you should already have a designated sector, and your rifle positioned to be brought into action rapidly. The man riding shotgun, for example, should have the butt of the rifle in his lap and the muzzle sticking slightly out the window.
 
Everything is a compromise, bullpups are a compromise that allows for a much longer barrel in a shorter overall package. Part of the compromise is that you either give up being able to switch shoulders w/o modifying the rifle (FAMAS, SA80, AUG) or you accept a more complicated mechanism (F2000).

I've got a FS2000 and have used it at our local rifle match. The shortness is very nice around barricades, it's very ambidextrous (the CH can't be flipped but can be accessed by your left hand), and the longer barrel allows for a higher velocity and flatter trajectory. The adjustable gas system doesn't hurt either.

BSW
 
Why couldn't that AUG be equiped with a brass deflector, to make it more suitable for weak side?
To me it seems like some of these short commings just need a slight bit of innovation/refinement.
 
I picked up a bolt action bullpup a few months ago. It is pretty heavy but doesn't seem as heavy as most of the weight is between the hands. I really like it for offhand shooting. Trigger is great on mine as well.
 
poolingmyignorance said:
Why couldn't that AUG be equiped with a brass deflector, to make it more suitable for weak side?
To me it seems like some of these short commings just need a slight bit of innovation/refinement.
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Because a brass deflector would have to be put where your face goes.

The bullpup I like the best is the P90. Load from the top, eject out the bottom. Problem solved. Sure, you probably can't fire it upside down, but I don't think that's much of a concern. I don't see why they can't just upsize it for 5.56.
 
HDCamel said:
Because a brass deflector would have to be put where your face goes.

The bullpup I like the best is the P90. Load from the top, eject out the bottom. Problem solved. Sure, you probably can't fire it upside down, but I don't think that's much of a concern. I don't see why they can't just upsize it for 5.56.
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Looking at the video, there's easily an inch + of space between his face and the ejection port... besides it wouldn't have to be an a2 style..something thin low profile fin type.. I believe it's very do-able, I just see things like this and wonder, if it's cause demand isn't there, or is demand not there becasue there aren't things like this?
 
The ejection problem with the Steyr is simple get a left handed bolt. The Tavor which may or may not bo coming to a gun shop near you can be changed to let handed operation as well. The FS 2000 might be on my short list at a later date.
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As already mentioned, the left hand bolt doesn't address the issue raised in the video. A left hand bolt doesn't allow to you switch the side the rifle ejects from on the fly when having to shoot from the weak side. If you're a lefty and you put the left hand bolt in, when you transition to the right shoulder to shoot around the corner you get brass in the face.

Regarding the US made Tavor, I posted a video about it and show you what it will look like and I do get a chance to fire the prototype.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx2yCbmgp-c
 
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