Bump in the night belt

[Kleanbore]

This exchange from just under a decade ago may shed some light on the premise of the OP's question and at the same time, illustrate the dangers involved in heading out with gun in hand to investigate a noise.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3116764&postcount=118

 

[shafter]

I am sort of shocked that people would rather let an intruder murder, kidnap, or rape children and family members in other rooms of the house than to try and stop it.

I guess it is a safer course of action, though, so if you are concerned about self preservation, holding up and letting whatever happens to the rest of the family happen, would be a good strategy. Too bad for the kids though.

If rape and murder is happening down the hall, then you're going to wake up to a much different set of noises than a simple "bump in the night". If you feel your children are being kidnapped from their bedrooms are you going to take time to put on your tactical belt or just grab your gun and go?

If one takes time to harden their home properly then there shouldn't be any real fear of an intruder wandering around inside your house while you sleep. Put solid locks on the doors and keep the windows secure. Add an alarm system and maybe some cameras and you're going to make someone make a lot of noise to gain entry.

 

[RPZ]

If rape and murder is happening down the hall, then you're going to wake up to a much different set of noises than a simple "bump in the night". If you feel your children are being kidnapped from their bedrooms are you going to take time to put on your tactical belt or just grab your gun and go?

If one takes time to harden their home properly then there shouldn't be any real fear of an intruder wandering around inside your house while you sleep. Put solid locks on the doors and keep the windows secure. Add an alarm system and maybe some cameras and you're going to make someone make a lot of noise to gain entry.

Total agreement with second part. In addition to hardening, lighting can be used to give one an advantage. If you own your own home additional switches can be wired for lights in specific rooms and areas that can be activated from the master bedroom and or first hallway. Cheap night lights can be used for low lighting situated to eliminate blind spots (if any of them are off you know you might have a problem). Mirrors can be situated to eliminate blind spots.

On the rape and murder thing I think people are taking this out of context. It is not that you are going to wake up to the sounds of rape or murder. But anyone with kids, other extended family in other rooms is likely to want to ensure their security. A plan or two is great, but in the event that it is possible or obvious intruders are in the house I do not know any man personally that is just going to stay in their room and call the police.

So.. for the rest..

Regards to past threads ad nauseum my observation - and I have participated in some of those threads - is that there is no majority consensus on a blanket policy for intruders. Except perhaps among singles or couples that live alone, and even some dissenters there.

I think for those dissenters a properly set up belt might be a good idea. And one addition might be a phone pouch/carrier. If you are going to be moving you do not want your gun, a flashlight and your phone in your hands.

 

[Kleanbore]

If you own your own home additional switches can be wired for lights in specific rooms and areas that can be activated from the master bedroom and or first hallway. Cheap night lights can be used for low lighting situated to eliminate blind spots (if any of them are off you know you might have a problem). Mirrors can be situated to eliminate blind spots.

If you can see him in a mirror, he can see you.

There are much better strategies.

But anyone with kids, other extended family in other rooms is likely to want to ensure their security.

Certainly.

A plan or two is great, but in the event that it is possible or obvious intruders are in the house I do not know any man personally that is just going to stay in their room and call the police.

You seem to be very limited regarding your acquaintances.

Regards to past threads ad nauseum my observation - and I have participated in some of those threads - is that there is no majority consensus on a blanket policy for intruders

There may be those who insist upon holding to preconceived beliefs, but all informed opinion, supported by real events and training and simulated encounters, is on the same page.

 

[Don Dayacetah]

Holster on the belt that is already on the pants. Flashlight in the pocket. Problem solved.

 

[RPZ]

If you can see him in a mirror, he can see you.

There are much better strategies.

Certainly.

You seem to be very limited regarding your acquaintances.

There may be those who insist upon holding to preconceived beliefs, but all informed opinion, supported by real events and training and simulated encounters, is on the same page.

Thugs that break into houses generally are not sitting in corners watching mirrors on the wall.

Actually, I know alot of people. From all walks of life. Some of them have similar, more or less, to my training and experience, some don't. But none of them who have family in other parts of the house, would sit in their bedroom on the phone.

Informed? In whose opinion? Yours. I've had plenty of training and experience. Some who also have training and experience have not shared your opinion in this thread. As I have said to someone else on this forum recently; the whole world (trained and experienced or not) do not necessarily see things as you do.

 

[Kleanbore]

Thugs that break into houses generally are not sitting in corners watching mirrors on the wall.

That wouldn't be necessary.

Actually, I know alot of people. From all walks of life. Some of them have similar, more or less, to my training and experience, some don't. But none of them who have family in other parts of the house, would sit in their bedroom on the phone

ONE MORE TIME, no one responsibly recommends doing that, if there is evidence of an intruder in the house.

But of course it is possible to equip oneself to know whether there is someone inside.

Informed? In whose opinion?

Ayoob, Bane, Pincus, Seeklander, quite a number of members here who have trained to do their duty as professionals, and past and present SWAT team members with whom I am acquainted.. I have yet to hear anyone recommend searching for an intruder by themselves, or going out from a safe position unless it were immediately necessary to get someone to safety.

I've had plenty of training and experience. Some who also have training and experience have not shared your opinion in this thread

There are all kinds of people who consider themselves to have "had training. and experience", but unless and until they have engaged in relevant FoF training in a number of realistic scenarios, we can reasonably discount their claims of expertise.

Try it some time. Use Airsoft, if that's what you can do.

 

[RPZ]

That wouldn't be necessary.

ONE MORE TIME, no one responsibly recommends doing that, if there is evidence of an intruder in the house.

But of course it is possible to equip oneself to know whether there is someone inside.

Ayoob, Bane, Pincus, Seeklander, quite a number of members here who have trained to do their duty as professionals, and past and present SWAT team members with whom I am acquainted.. I have yet to hear anyone recommend searching for an intruder by themselves, or going out from a safe position unless it were immediately necessary to get someone to safety.

There are all kinds of people who consider themselves to have "had training. and experience", but unless and until they have engaged in relevant FoF training in a number of realistic scenarios, we can reasonably discount their claims of expertise.

Try it some time. Use Airsoft, if that's what you can do.

No one? You need to re-read this thread. I've seen two who do not at least rule it out at all, aside from myself.

I've been on a SWAT team. SWAT team tactics revolve around acting as a team. There is some incorporated stuff that is very useful as an individual, but otherwise it is irrelevent.

I have yet to see a single simulations training that replicates an average home, and replicates the average thugs as adversary. Besides, a PO or two entering from outside, with no clue as to the layout of a home, are going to be at an extreme disadvantage.

These simulations also do not factor in the likely reaction of any intruders in a home that become aware of company entering the front door. Which way do you think they are going to go? Maybe to the back, the bedrooms? Terrific, now you potentially have a crossfire fight with you on one end and POs on the other.

I have been reading stuff from people like Ayoob, and many others for about 40 years. I agree with them sometimes, and sometimes not. I don't worship at their tactical feet.

I have repeatedly stated that many people may have other family in other parts of a home at any one given time. I have also said repeatedly that getting them to safety, ensuring their safety, in different wording, would be the object of any man I know. That is not sitting in your room and waiting for the police.

If you live alone, a couple alone, it may be a good idea. Maybe. Not for me - but I'm not everyone that has worn a hat, nor the rest of the world who have not.

 

[coloradokevin]

Has anyone ever considered putting together a belt that has the things you might need to handle a bump in the night, all in one place?

For example, some type of duty belt with holster, pistol, flashlight, extra mags?

Having it all in one place would be nice.

What would be useful components of such a system? I am not looking for something crazy tactical.

Put a flashlight on your bedside gun and call it a day. That's my advise. Odds are strong that you aren't going to want to be fumbling with a 'duty belt' when a bad guy is coming into your house, and it's cumbersome to try to keep it immediately at the ready next to your bed. I wear a duty belt daily, and it's equipped with everything I need for a threat at work... it's in a box in another room of my house when I'm home. I keep a loaded gun on my nightstand, and that's sufficient for the things that go bump in the night. I don't feel it's probably going to be an option to take the time to throw on a belt if someone just came through your door uninvited. Those are the time when you learn to fight in your underwear.

 

[Kleanbore]

I have yet to see a single simulations training that replicates an average home,....

What kind of "replication" of an "average home" do you think would be relevant"

and replicates the average thugs as adversary.

Why would you want to try to "replicate" an "average thug". Do you put a lot of stock in averages?

Besides, a PO or two entering from outside, with no clue as to the layout of a home, are going to be at an extreme disadvantage.

Yes, the "hunter" is almost always at an extreme disadvantage--that's the point.

These simulations also do not factor in the likely reaction of any intruders in a home that become aware of company entering the front door

I have no idea what you mean by that, but a simulation can be designed to represent any situation whatsoever.

Why would you believe that if so very few participants who go out from an ensconced position succeed in simulation, trying that would represent an effective strategy?

I have also said repeatedly that getting them to safety, ensuring their safety, in different wording, would be the object of any man I know.

Everyone agrees with that. But there may be more prudent ways of doing that than heading down the hall with gun in hand having no idea whatsoever who, if anyone, may be in the house, or where.

It's all a matter of risk management. We keep our firearms, our door locks, our lighting, our alarms, the gravel and thorns under our windows, and our security cameras for that purpose. But that's all about tool-set. Having gun in hand does not ward off evil spirits or stop bullets.

It is better to let the threat come to you. If you do have to attend to the safety of persons elsewhere in the house, do so, but when you walk out to do so, you incur several serious risks:

• You may shoot the wrong person. That has happened.
• You may be shot by the person whose noise you heard, or ambushed by another person with him of whom you are not aware, leaving the other occupants on their own. That has happened.
• You may be shot by one or more law enforcement officers in hot pursuit of the intruders. That has happened.

It is best to have a plan, to have anyone old enough in the house be able to lock the doors and defend themselves, and very importantly, to be able to know who, if anyone, may be lurking where before heading out to do battle.

 

[Kleanbore]

Put a flashlight on your bedside gun and call it a day. That's my advise. Odds are strong that you aren't going to want to be fumbling with a 'duty belt' when a bad guy is coming into your house, and it's cumbersome to try to keep it immediately at the ready next to your bed.

Good advice, in my opinion.

I keep a loaded gun on my nightstand, and that's sufficient for the things that go bump in the night.

One suggestion: that's fine for what t one does whan getting in bed. but should someone come in before that, I really would not be able to access a defensive firearm with sufficient rapidity. With our house layout, the wisdom of wearing the gun at home is quite obvious.

 

[Balrog]

The main thing I like about the idea of a belt is having everything all together. If there is not enough time to put on the belt, everything is still at least all in one place.

In my situation, there are children in 4 different bedrooms on 2 different levels. If there are unexpected sounds at night, I pretty much will need to investigate. We don't live in a place where police response is fast.

I have an alarm system, so I will get a little early warning. We had a prowler on our property about a year ago. He opened a door to detached garage, and the alarm chimed to let me know something was going on, which woke me up. He was outside the house, I could see him from the back window. I called the police, grabbed my pistol, and just watched him from the window until he left, which was about 10 minutes before the police arrived. If he had tried to break in to the house, there would have been plenty of time for him to have killed someone before police arrived.

 

[RPZ]

What kind of "replication" of an "average home" do you think would be relevant"

Why would you want to try to "replicate" an "average thug". Do you put a lot of stock in averages?

Yes, the "hunter" is almost always at an extreme disadvantage--that's the point.

I have no idea what you mean by that, but a simulation can be designed to represent any situation whatsoever.

Why would you believe that if so very few participants who go out from an ensconced position succeed in simulation, trying that would represent an effective strategy?

Everyone agrees with that. But there may be more prudent ways of doing that than heading down the hall with gun in hand having no idea whatsoever who, if anyone, may be in the house, or where.

It's all a matter of risk management. We keep our firearms, our door locks, our lighting, our alarms, the gravel and thorns under our windows, and our security cameras for that purpose. But that's all about tool-set. Having gun in hand does not ward off evil spirits or stop bullets.

It is better to let the threat come to you. If you do have to attend to the safety of persons elsewhere in the house, do so, but when you walk out to do so, you incur several serious risks:

• You may shoot the wrong person. That has happened.
• You may be shot by the person whose noise you heard, or ambushed by another person with him of whom you are not aware, leaving the other occupants on their own. That has happened.
• You may be shot by one or more law enforcement officers in hot pursuit of the intruders. That has happened.

It is best to have a plan, to have anyone old enough in the house be able to lock the doors and defend themselves, and very importantly, to be able to know who, if anyone, may be lurking where before heading out to do battle.

Replication; a household environment, if that is the training scenario. Furniture other furnishings obstacles, mirrors and other reflective objects, and perhaps other resident family members. It could be an office environment instead.

The average thug enters a household for some purpose. This might change if they decide to check the whole house for occupants. But usually their preoccupation is grabbing stuff they want and getting out. If they intend to stay in there longer than that they may have other ideas. But generally they are not going to sit around long waiting to ambush someone.

You may be more vulnerable ensconced. In a room with just a window for escape you are cornered. Exiting a window you are extremely vulnerable even at ground level. Even if the door is closed and locked it may be forced open and you may be the target of an instant hail of bullets from both sides of the doorway. One observation watching many encounters is that thugs will simply stick their hand round a corner and shoot if they know where their target might be. If interiors walls are brick and mortar you are not going to get a decisive shot back, and maybe only have a mattress and bed frame for "cover". In a rural place where police response can be extended they may get inventive and turn your favorite bottle of Scotch into a Molotov and drive you out.

Simulations do not replicate someone shooting through a locked door at you, a stud and sheetrock wall, or through a piece of bedroom furniture.

There is always a chance of shooting the wrong person. This is omnipresent at home, on the street or anywhere else.

POs in pursuit of badguys into an unknown household is, grossly understated, reckless procedure. That is what containment and SWAT are for. This kind of practice can get POs killed as well. There are millions of ex-cops, vets etc out there whose natural and instinctive response to a sudden home invasion is to protect themselves and families.

I am in full agreement on all points of planning and prep. People that own their homes have more leeway in making really effective hardening changes. Some people have financial handicaps whether they own or rent. $400 or $500 may be pocket change to some, others it a helluva lot of money.

 

[Kleanbore]

Replication; a household environment, if that is the training scenario. Furniture other furnishings obstacles, mirrors and other reflective objects, and perhaps other resident family members. It could be an office environment instead.

You can set anything up in a simulation.

The average thug enters a household for some purpose. This might change if they decide to check the whole house for occupants. But usually their preoccupation is grabbing stuff they want and getting out. If they intend to stay in there longer than that they may have other ideas. But generally they are not going to sit around long waiting to ambush someone.

Well, ambushing someone may be the farthest thing from their minds, but the homeowner may effectively stumble into an ambush when he goes forth to find them and one or more of them hear him coming.

You may be more vulnerable ensconced. In a room with just a window for escape you are cornered

The ensconced defender always has the upper hand, as demonstrated in exercise after exercise.

Exiting a window you are extremely vulnerable even at ground level.

Why on earth would I ever try that?

...thugs will simply stick their hand round a corner and shoot if they know where their target might be

You do not want them to know where you are, and the best way to avoid it is to remain hidden, still, and quiet.

Simulations do not replicate someone shooting through a locked door at you, a stud and sheetrock wall, or through a piece of bedroom furniture.

You are unlikely to be shot by someone sho cannot see you.

There is always a chance of shooting the wrong person.

The risk is much higher for the homeowner who goes looking for trouble.

POs in pursuit of badguys into an unknown household is, grossly understated, reckless procedure.

Police officers, and armed neighbors rushing in to help, have shot defenders with their guns in their hands.

I have a neighbor who works at Asymmetric. They train skilled civilians, SWAT team personnel, sheriffs and their deputies, and others in realistic simulations that include innocents, no-shoot situations, and all kinds of situations and encounters. They strongly advise against trying to find and engage an intruder, and their experience is consistent with that related by Massad Ayoob regarding the national tactical invitationals, as described in Frank Ettin's post.

Heck, even Jim Cirillo and his Stakeout Squad knew to remain well hidden and to let the bad guys walk in on them.

With today's technology we can know what caused that " bump in the night", and if it were a person, who, and where they are. There is no excuse for trying to figure that out yourself from an unprotected position.

 

[Wichaka]

I'm going to go out on a limb here...and will probably have a lot of people rain down their disdain for me, but here goes; does anyone really know Ayoobs background?

He was a part time Police Officer starting back in the '70's in a very small town in New Hampshire, population of around 2,000...and has been involved very few if any firearm related confrontations. Not that instructors need to be, but it would sure help his credibility of he were. He's great at marketing himself, and throwing out useless articles back in the day in Combat Handguns...such as reasons why not to carry a 1911...but, which he shows up at my LE Instructors conference packing a 1911 every time. Yes, I've trained with him when he put on classes at my LE Instructors conference over the years, sat down with him and discussed his articles, his LE career etc., but he's certainly not all that. There are wayyyyyy better instructors than him...and a lot of the no-name instructors I've trained with put him to shame.

Where he shines....helping folks with his legal instruction in before, during and after a shooting. There's not many that can run with him in that area.

Comparing Cirillo to Ayoob is like bacon to oranges...

Although I don't agree with everything brought up in this thread, and no two people will....RPZ brings up some possibilities that may need some thought. Only you know your residence and and neighborhood, and what possibilities might be available to you.

Folks...think outside the box. In fact, drag that sucker into the woods, set it on fire, collect the insurance and go out and buy more ammo and training.

 

[RPZ]

You can set anything up in a simulation.

Well, ambushing someone may be the farthest thing from their minds, but the homeowner may effectively stumble into an ambush when he goes forth to find them and one or more of them hear him coming.

The ensconced defender always has the upper hand, as demonstrated in exercise after exercise.

Why on earth would I ever try that?

You do not want them to know where you are, and the best way to avoid it is to remain hidden, still, and quiet.

You are unlikely to be shot by someone sho cannot see you.

The risk is much higher for the homeowner who goes looking for trouble.

Police officers, and armed neighbors rushing in to help, have shot defenders with their guns in their hands.

I have a neighbor who works at Asymmetric. They train skilled civilians, SWAT team personnel, sheriffs and their deputies, and others in realistic simulations that include innocents, no-shoot situations, and all kinds of situations and encounters. They strongly advise against trying to find and engage an intruder, and their experience is consistent with that related by Massad Ayoob regarding the national tactical invitationals, as described in Frank Ettin's post.

Heck, even Jim Cirillo and his Stakeout Squad knew to remain well hidden and to let the bad guys walk in on them.

With today's technology we can know what caused that " bump in the night", and if it were a person, who, and where they are. There is no excuse for trying to figure that out yourself from an unprotected position.

You wouldn't hear me. I can not speak for the rest of the world.. just me. But I am on my feet, I can move, and at some point I am I am probably going to hear you. You are probably looking for booty, and making noise, and your movement across certain areas is going to cause unavoidable visible shadow movements.

On the other hand someone might hear someone on their phone talking their way through the questions. Personally I would settle for dialing, and talking if I get the opportunity, taking advantage of the free and admissable recording of the whole event.

The ensconced defender in a bedroom has a very limited field of view - just a doorway on average. And that is if the door is open. Give me a free hand in an ensconced defender "exercise" and I will literally smoke him out in minutes - perhaps seconds - with just what I can find in the average household/garage. I already gave an example, I could think of many more. You did of course mention "averages" earlier. No, I do not think exclusively of averages when my life might be at stake. But there are some averages of human behavior for a base line.

Why would you "try that"? If I smoke you out, yes, you might take that window as opposed to trying a Butch and Sundance bailout from your ensconcment into my field of fire.

You might well take bullets from me if I know you are ensconced in a bedroom - even if I can not see you. Especially if it has a hollow door and stud walls. If I plan to search the whole house for booty, and possible fun, I will figure out where you are. A fast peek will tell the story - with every confidence if the walls are brick. If they are not, you will probably not shoot because you have not seen a weapon right? If the door is locked now my suspicions are really aroused - now I know something or someone is in there.

Yes, POs and neighbors have been shot going in too. Life 101 - such things can happen when you enter into someone's castle when they believe their life, and often that of family are at stake. I recall one article recently where an off duty PO shot his off duty PO wife when she came home one night by mistake. Yes, these things do happen.

Ultimately I am not necessarily trying to engage an intruder or intruders, although I might choose to do so. But at the very least ascertain if it is in fact intruders, and deny them access beyond a certain point. To me this is critical for people that have other family in the household.

There are piles of news stories, clips and videos of householders engaging intruders. Some websites compile them. Some go well, some not. But I do not see a significant number of not so wells, and I have looked at a lot of them.

Stakeouts are often a let them walk in on us proposition. You are still potentially confronted with a sudden chaotic exchange in very close proximity.

 

[FL-NC]

This is the set-up I used overseas when I worked in a war zone:
Duty belt, with safariland sls holster for issued pistol with light, 1 extra pistol mag, surefire 6p light in pouch, 1 set of flex cuffs, small pouch with rubber gloves, combat gauze, asherman chest seal, and CAT tourniquet. This was under my bunk. The pistol (Glock 17, with attached light) was NOT kept in the holster- it was on my nightstand with a 2 cell mag light. In this manner, I had immediate access to the pistol and a redundant light source. If tactically feasible, I could put on the belt, upgrade to my long gun, and holster the pistol. Again, this was what I kept accessible in a war zone. Is it going to far for a civilian in the US? Not my call.

Other things you may want to keep accessible near your bed: a fully charged cell phone, some type of secure closed footwear (in the event you have to evac the structure, or are forced to move from the bedroom, as there may be clutter, broken glass, body fluids, etc in your path), and some means to break a window in order to hastily exit the structure (it doesn't need to be a tactical sledge- just something to break and rake a window- a bed comforter over the windowsill should be sufficient to protect you climbing out). Finally, some type of appropriate clothing for the environment. Not a big deal if you evac from my house in Fl in your whitey-tighties in July (other than the jokes the first responders will be telling later) but not a more serious situation if you live in Wyoming and have to get outside in Feb.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Have a gun, have a light, have a phone and don't go trying to act like you're special forces and you should be ok.

 

[jeepnik]

Massad Ayoob suggested this very thing 30 to 40 years ago. While I never set up a bump in the night gun belt, I did stuff some things in my robe pockets. The robe has changed, and some of the things are different, but the idea is as good today as it was then.

Besides, I figured if the cops did need to come, the guy in the robe wouldn't look quite so unusual as the naked guy wearing a gun belt.

 

[paulsj]

Has anyone ever considered putting together a belt that has the things you might need to handle a bump in the night, all in one place?

For example, some type of duty belt with holster, pistol, flashlight, extra mags?

Having it all in one place would be nice.

What would be useful components of such a system? I am not looking for something crazy tactical.

A handgun with tactical light and holster on belt capable of holding it securely. Good quality thermal imager so if you foolishly choose to go out to check out the noise someone doesn't jump from behind the bush and use your body as a log (even small hatchet or axe can realy do a job even with just a few blows). If they have a shotgun one is a gonner.
What you need is to become familiar with what Terminator of Ukraine did to rob his victims. This will cure your bump in the night investigations permenantely.

I just put on flood lights temporarily which takes care of the problem.

 

[Balrog]

A handgun with tactical light and holster on belt capable of holding it securely. Good quality thermal imager so if you foolishly choose to go out to check out the noise someone doesn't jump from behind the bush and use your body as a log (even small hatchet or axe can realy do a job even with just a few blows). If they have a shotgun one is a gonner.
What you need is to become familiar with what Terminator of Ukraine did to rob his victims. This will cure your bump in the night investigations permenantely.

I just put on flood lights temporarily which takes care of the problem.

Now that is one confusing post.

 

[RPZ]

Massad Ayoob suggested this very thing 30 to 40 years ago. While I never set up a bump in the night gun belt, I did stuff some things in my robe pockets. The robe has changed, and some of the things are different, but the idea is as good today as it was then.

Besides, I figured if the cops did need to come, the guy in the robe wouldn't look quite so unusual as the naked guy wearing a gun belt.

I see a market niche! The Tactical Robe.

Is it black?

 

[Wichaka]

I see a market niche! The Tactical Robe.

Is it black?

Urban camo

 

[Jeff White]

Aww come on guys, everybody knows Coyote Brown is the new black

You could do Ranger Green for a little variety

 

[Balrog]

"If rape and murder is happening down the hall, then you're going to wake up to a much different set of noises than a simple "bump in the night"."

You sure about that? Murder can sometimes be very quiet. Ted Bundy beat a group of sorority sisters to death with a baseball bat at FSU without waking anybody up.