Bush calls for easier wiretap rules

[Man With A Gun]

All said and done, who here voted for Bush last election?

This man has been exactly the same from the start and, yet, the majority of voters elected him.

European newspapers headlined "How can Americans be so stupid" .

What I wonder is, will we been even more stupid again?

 

[ArmedBear]

See FreeRepublic or DemocraticUnderground for lots of hysteria on the left and the right. I can't say as I've ever seen a calm, rational political discussion without any apocalyptic overtones.

True. But FR and DD represent a tiny sliver of the population, drawn together by just those tendencies.

THR is not an anomaly among anomalies.

 

[budney]

ArmedBear, you could be right. I haven't seen any of those calm, quiet political discussion sites. Indeed, I've seen forums on kittens turn ugly when politics came up.

--Len.

 

[Dravur]

The Sky is falling! The sky is falling!

It always interests me that the bush haters will call gonzalez a liar, a commie or any other term...without proof. They also claim the wiretaps are illegal and the prez should be impeached... my my, such a simple outlook of the world.

There are doubts and concerns about what the FISA court is supposed to do and what it's capabilities are and when it is supposed to be used, etc. This will work itself in court the way that it is supposed to. The Prez on one side and Dems the other. So, it will work it's way through, so time to drop it.

Now, as to the morals of it? I want the prez and his dudes listening into OBL's calls into the US. I then want them to watch the people he calls. Unlike the steaming horde of Dems, I understand there are bad dudes in this country waiting to do something bad. I want them monitored. Can it be abused? sure, just like everything else. If they want to listen in on my conversations with Gramma, so be it. They might get a good biscuit recipe. Do I honestly think they are listening? nope. But, I am not paranoid.

So, the hyperventilating of the leftists who claim the Constitution is being shredded and Bush is trying to be a dictator, gimme a break. He will be gone in a year and a half and all your bets that he will be there forever will be done.

The political penduum swings both ways in the country. The dems may well win in 08, but they will surely screw up the country in the time in power and the pendulum will swing back. The idiotic socialist policies of the left will show up, and the people will hopefully slap them back again. Lets just hope they dont screw it up all the way.

 

[GTSteve03]

Can it be abused? sure, just like everything else.

Then why give them the opportunity? Oh wait, because you're scared and want to feel safe.

If they want to listen in on my conversations with Gramma, so be it. They might get a good biscuit recipe. Do I honestly think they are listening? nope. But, I am not paranoid.

That's great that you're willing to be spied upon. Personally, I am a little more protective of my privacy. Sure, maybe the fact that I'm not willing to roll over and let any government techie know everything about my life just because they want to makes me paranoid. I guess I should stop locking my doors at night too and stop carrying guns, I mean I don't have anything to fear, the police are out there protecting me as we speak.

 

[Outlaws]

If they want to listen in on my conversations with Gramma, so be it.

So you have no problem with them doing a monthly search of your home either just to make sure you are not a terrorist? You have nothing to hide right? How about a camera in your home?

Should we allow torture of criminals too? Not water boarding, I mean pulling finger and toe nails? If you are not guilty you will never have anything to fear, right? Only bad people will ever get that.

 

[Matt King]

If they want to listen in on my conversations with Gramma, so be it.

This is exactly what the founders wanted to protect against, when they wrote the Fourth Amendment:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

Well, let's not get too dogmatic here. I respect your opinions on many things, ArmedBear. And, while there is a certain "the sky is falling" sentiment to alot of my posts, well, I don't think it's not justified.

Domestic wiretaps, search rights without warrant by the federal government, ability to put people in prison without a right to legal counsel or a trial by jury, or a speedy trial at that?

Yes, I know of the excesses of the Clintons, and I've studied many things that happened before my time, but none of them were as extreme as what the Bush Administration has been up to.

Then, you add to that the fact not speculation, but fact that although we had a terrorist attack on our shores, we didn't seal the borders, and although we know that Osama did it, we have given up searching for him... well, is it chicken little?

I'm not a raging lefty moonbat. You should know that my beliefs are small "l" libertarian with a little econ nationalism thrown in from time to time. I didn't start where I'm at, it took years to get here.

Because I look at the facts, it appears that we are being hijacked for bad purposes by as yet, unknown enemies, and I'll give you a hint, these folks aren't Al Qaeda that are coming after us.

What do you think, ArmedBear will happen when a Clinton or Obama has the unprecedented powers the Bush Administration has? They'll just give them up because it's "dangerous to democracy" or some such drivel?

I could be wrong, but there are too many stars aligning here for me and for anyone else to just ignore it.

 

[springmom]

And this is related to RKBA because.....?

Springmom

 

[ravencon]

I'm glad thehighroad is siding with the terrorists on this one.

Yes, any one who opposes the Dear Leader is obviously an enemy combatant and should get tossed into our gulag without borders.

Please pass the yummy Kool-Aid!

 

[Lone_Gunman]

And this is related to RKBA because.....?

Springmom

The description of the L&P forum on the main page of THR:

Get informed on issues affecting the right to keep and bear arms and other civil rights

 

[nobody_special]

such a simple outlook of the world.

Yes, belief in the rule of law is "simple." :banghead:

And this is related to RKBA because.....?

It's a civil rights issue, not specifically RKBA... I believe that's okay for this forum.

 

[ravencon]

And this is related to RKBA because.....?

The RKBA is one of many fundamental rights. These rights do not exist in a state of splendid isolation.

 

[CDignition]

Oh man, give it a rest with the Tinfoil hat brigade...

IF the Admin did NOTHING, and there was another terrorist attack, there would be a Commission and hearings out the waazoo as to "Why Nothing Was Done"... We should have been Watching them, blah blah...Its like you people are wishing for another attack, or TEOTWAWKI.... Its like youre WANTING something to happen..

 

[budney]

I understand there are bad dudes in this country waiting to do something bad. I want them monitored.

Talk about a simple outlook on life! "Monitor the bad guys"? How exactly do we know who to monitor? Do you honestly think that a gypsy fortune teller, or God, is whispering the names of bad guys into the President's ear? Of course not... so "monitor the bad guys" means "monitor lots of people, most of them innocent, and hope that the bad guys are in there somewhere."

After all, why stop at "monitoring" the bad guys? Why not simply execute them? Because, if Bush said, "I'm killing bad people to keep you safe," you might just realize that he can't possibly do that without killing lots of innocent people too. (Sorta like he is doing in Iraq, but that's another thread...)

--Len.

 

[shooter503]

Tecumsah,
Please note I never stated whether I approved of the Bush policies or not. I merely pointed out that sharpening a weapon if you are going to use it yourself might make sense, sharpening it for your enemy is not smart.

Quote:
Originally posted by Shooter503:This policy made political sense when it appeared a Republican administration would last forever but now it is suicidal.


Yes because Repbulicans are friends to freedom and Democrats are not. If you have forgotten already, let me remind you that Republicans have shredded the Bill of Rights and Constitutional government more in the last 8 years then has ever been done before. But hey they haven't started on the 2nd Amendment yet so its ok.

 

[flashman70]

Even the lefties admit (even without Cheney pulling their fingernails out) that the realities of how telecom calls travel has made many provisions of the FISA law obsolete and a detriment to spying (listening in, tracking, ID'ing, etc.) on terrorists in foreign countries. This is not domestic spying - e.g., calls from one foreign country to another and that may travel through the US network. Plus some FISA judges are loath to approve after the fact approvals as the law provides. Much in the Administration's proposals are reasonable and needed.

 

[xd9fan]

So you have no problem with them doing a monthly search of your home either just to make sure you are not a terrorist? You have nothing to hide right? How about a camera in your home?

right on (outlaws, I love your sig line..so true and my how the children of america or not learning this)

And this is related to RKBA because.....?

in a word....liberty
Gun owners are looking around and seeing the very real collapse of the GOP platform. This includes the gun issue. If Bush views the 4thA as a pain in his a$$ and would have signed the AW ban which goes against the 2A.....has the 2ndA fallen from this party's platform like the concept of limited Govt? Because of Bush, the voters see the GOP now could really careless about the 4th.

I dont think its unreasonable to look for patterns in how this Govt attacks other Bills of Right. We gunowners can learn and prepare for the attacks on the 2nd.

its funny....I dont fear terrorist...call it whatever I just dont. If death is coming it will come. (besides Bush just gives me a color code and tells me to going about my life and that Govt will keep me safe and warm)
but I fear losing liberty...call it........human
and this Federal Govt is just to big

 

[budney]

So you have no problem with them doing a monthly search of your home either just to make sure you are not a terrorist? You have nothing to hide right? How about a camera in your home?

right on

I never completely understand how folks can say, on the one hand, "The 2nd Amendment is the reset button on the Constitution," and, "Heck yeah I want to be wiretapped and spied on!" Why do we quote the founders' drivel about "resisting tyranny" when we are, in fact, perfectly willing to submit to tyranny?

That reminds me--my birthday is past, but this one's on my Christmas wishlist: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45. Not invoking Godwin's law here; I'm just interested in a practical example of people living in a police state while flattering themselves that they're free men.

--Len.

 

[SDC]

How many of the "it's no big deal" crowd here would be saying the same thing if it was Clinton (for example) doing the same thing? I'm sure police officers want these laws the same way they want any other law that gives them more power over us, but that's expected, and it's to be fought against in a country that prides itself on civil liberties. Once passed, these laws don't go away, and the little basket of rights and freedoms we hope to pass onto the next generation gets that much lighter.

 

[Dravur]

Then why give them the opportunity? Oh wait, because you're scared and want to feel safe.

Nope, just not paranoid. But, thanks for the strawman argument.

Talk about a simple outlook on life! "Monitor the bad guys"? How exactly do we know who to monitor?

I dunno, seems kind of simple. If OBL is calling you, you might be a redne... errr terrorist.

 

[budney]

Nope, just not paranoid.

Dravur, out of curiosity: you seem to be saying you're not scared of terrorists "fighting us here," yet you still support laws that erode our Constitutional rights. Why, then, do you support them?

As for "paranoia," what does paranoia have to do with refusing to give up our rights? I don't carry a gun because I'm "paranoid" that gangs of BG's are laying in wait for me; I carry it because I choose to be prepared. And I refuse to give up my Constitutional rights, not because I'm "paranoid" that Bush is going to build a gulag; I refuse to give them up because they're mine, and nobody's allowed to take them away from me.

If OBL is calling you, you might be a redne... errr terrorist.

If OBL is calling you, then getting a warrant will take approximately one nanosecond. That's a pretty poor argument for taking away Constitutionally protected rights from all of us, in order to enable you to do something you already can do without the slightest difficulty.

--Len.

 

[Dravur]

you seem to be saying you're not scared of terrorists "fighting us here," yet you still support laws that erode our Constitutional rights. Why, then, do you support them

Maybe cuz I dont see spying on our enemies a bad thing. I have seen no evidence that the US is spying on its own people unless a foregin call comes into the US. So, until the sky actually starts falling, I don't see this heinous problem that you are hyperventilating about. As long as it's used the way it is, I support it. If it is mis-used, then we can chat. But, I have seen no evidence that it has.

 

[budney]

Maybe cuz I dont see spying on our enemies a bad thing.

The usual chicken-and-egg problem: they're "spying" because they don't know who the enemies are, and are hoping to find out. At least, if we give them full credit for their claimed intentions. That being the case, they have no choice but to "spy" on people who aren't enemies.

If the enemies were identified by bright neon signs, or by the satanic music that plays when they enter a room, or by angels whispering their name into Bush's ear, then "spying" on them would be a complete waste of time. They should simply be gunned down by Marines right where they stand. But we don't know who they are. Which means we can't spy on them either. We can only spy on lots and lots of people, almost all of them innocent, and hope that the enemies we seek are in there somewhere.

--Len.

 

[doubleg]

This is news? Freedom is not needed anymore. Vacate your house and report to a housing project near you. You will be issued clothing and starting next week you will report to work at jobs the government chooses for you. SUBMIT!!! SUBMIT!!!