Bush Lawyers TargetGun Control's Legal Rationale

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I'm no fan of President Bush either (and didn't vote for him), but in this case he's doing something I can at least agree with. Bellmore's right; had the Republicans provided a better nominee I would've been much happier.
 
At least "W" is got a spine even if it is not quiet as strong as some of you want it to be. None of his opponents have had anything at aall in that area. Next election Iwaant to see someone that the 'crats caan't touch for balls! How about Codalissa Rice! Black, female, smart as all get out and concervative too boot. Take all of the black votes, all of the femaale votes, and all of the conservative votes. And she might just do a good job! BTW I am white male.
 
If this goes anywhere at all. [hope]Please Please Please[/hope] It will be well worth the vote.

I too voted for Bush twice.

I do feel however that much of the crap in Iraq is not his fault. And I think that in many ways he gets a raw deal by the media.
 
On every question of construction carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed." --Thomas Jefferson

Enough said.

Smoke
 
Bush haters seem to be avoiding this thread.
If I responded to every thing that could be attributed to Bush, I would have over 10,000 posts.

I voted for the clown once (Libertarian the second time), but because I have standards, love the constitution, and low taxes. I am definitely in the Bush hater camp.

When Bush publicly talks about repealing some gun control, starts twisting arms to get laws repealed, or undoes some executive orders, then we can talk. Lower taxes would not hurt, either.

There are more threads running that make Bush look bad, than good.

Bush will leave the country worse than he found it. I am mainly refearing to taxes/spending, and federal powers.

Anyway, Kudos to Bush's lawyer, keep up the good work. :)
 
MuzzleBlast,

That faulty-logic argument is called "ad hominem."

One of the best courses I ever took was "Intro to Logic." You can probably find an introductory Logic text at a library or used book store. "Intro to Debate" books are also good.

Great information on how to frame proper arguments and how to spot flaws in others. Like 90% of the tripe you see on the news as "debate", left AND right wing.

Tends to increase the ability to have civil disagreements, especially online, and especially if everyone follows the rules.
 
Interesting side note:

US vs Miller
The ruling that a sawed off shotgun can be regulated because it is not a militia (military) weapon can be read that military weapons cannot be subject to regulation. So... Why can't I buy an M-16? Hmmm... If only Miller had been caught with a BAR or Thompson. This whole mess could have been avoided. Ok, postponed.
 
courts generally have interpreted the right to "keep and bear arms" as applying not to individuals but rather to the "well-regulated militia" maintained by each state.

This editorial comment by the author is not true. There are at least as many court opinions stating that the 2A is an individual right as there are saying its a collective right. Probably more.

The most recent "major" court opinion was by the notably liberal 9th Circuit court of appeals. They said it was an individual right.
 
I wrote the author

Jess,

Your statement,

--
The Supreme Court's 1939 opinion, upholding a federal law requiring registration of sawed-off shotguns, found that the amendment didn't guarantee "the right to keep and bear such an instrument," because it had no "reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia."
--

is patently false.

What the Court said (and this is after a lower Federal Court ruled in favor of Miller), was that it had no "judicial notice" that a short-barreled shotgun was part of the armaments of a militia.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/bills/blusvmiller.htm

Quote:

"In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a 'shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length' at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument."

Funny, though, as you must know because you did tons of research, when US v Miller was argued at the Supreme Court, Mr. Miller had no representation. Miller was dead, and his partner, Mr. Layton had copped a plea. The only attorneys arguing that day were government attorneys. I suppose it was not up to them to inform the court that short-barreled shotguns were used extensively in WWI, nor would they predict that they would be used in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and currently in Iraq and law enforcement. One would think that worldly attorneys and Justices would know about arms of WWI. And if they did, they were derelict in their duties, wouldn't you agree?

Quote:
"Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense."

And yet, it was. All they had to do was call in an Army armorer to give testimony. The Justices were too lazy and the government attorneys didn't want to lose a case.

No, Jess, the court didn't decide anything in US v Miller. What it did was to remand... hence the final words of the decision...

"The cause will be remanded for further proceedings.

Reversed and remanded."

It wanted the lower court to figure out if the weapon was used in warfare.

What? Why would they think that a weapon had to be used in warfare to be protected under the 2A? In fact, if it was settled that the 2A was a collective right, why did the Court hear US v Miller? It could have said, "The 2A applies only to States. Miller is not a State, therefore he has no standing." They could have done that, but they didn't.

Here is what they did say,

Quote:
"The signification attributed to the term Militia appears from the debates in the Convention, the history and legislation of Colonies and States, and the writings of approved commentators. These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. 'A body of citizens enrolled for military discipline.' And further, that ordinarily when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time."

Is it that difficult for you to do some basic research, Jess?

Lastly, you end with, "Robert Post, a constitutional-law professor at Yale Law School, said the new memorandum disregarded legal scholarship that conflicted with the administration's gun-rights views."

Perhaps Dr. Post would like to consult with fellow Yalie Ahkil Amar, who has a different view. And what of famed liberal constitutional scholar, Lawrence Tribe? His latest textbook on the subject reversed his long-held "collective rights" theory.

Go back and do your homework, Jess. And donate a week's pay to www.jpfo.org

Rick
Phx, Az
 
"the question of who possess the right secured by the Second Amendment remains open and unsettled in the courts and among scholars,"

SCHOLARS= Folks whose Anal Sphincter is cutting blood flow circulation to their brain.

"Robert Post, a constitutional-law professor at Yale Law School, said the new memorandum disregarded legal scholarship

SPHINCTER BOY sad he's a professor at Yale :(
 
Memorandums from the Attorney General are as worthless as the paper they are written upon.
The same could be said for parts of the U.S. Constitution, as of late. :scrutiny:
 
>>>The same could be said for parts of the U.S. Constitution, as of late.<<<

It is only as weak as the men of little character who choose to disregard it instead of taking the high road......

I guess keeping a little warm puddin in your tummy and bending over often for the sake of the state is easier eh?

This will be an interesting arguement in the end. I expect lots of people to vote with their feet given a poor outcome.

:confused:
 
rulings....

robert post(any relation to Emily???) yeah, nice guy, but, run 'im outta town onna rail!!! an' don' forget th' tar n' feathers. as for the election, it was like any other, we only get the lesser of numerous evils, so we can vote for "the best of the worst" :rolleyes:
--------------------------------------------
"the man who votes decides nothing, the man who counts the votes decides everything".....j stalin.
 
Lone_Gunman

I am more than willing to say that when Bush finally leaves Washington in 2008, we will have the exact same numbers of gun laws on the books as we do right now.

Well under the first Bush term we have 1 less gun law than when he started. He is pushing for tort reform.
Frankly as long as he doesn't increase the number of anti-gun laws, he is doing an ok job, anything past that is a good job.

Compare that with Clinton's or even Bush Sr. and you see that he is doing more for gun owners than they did. (Bush Sr. signed the import ban executive order)
 
The Assault Weapons Ban expired because of the way the law was written, and that didn't have anything to do with Bush. He was on record saying he supported it, but then didn't push for a new law to renew it. That's nice, if you don't mind hipocrisy.

If the AWB had not been written with a sunset provision, do you really think Bush would have actively pushed to have it repealed? No way.
 
Oh I understand politics GhostRider. I agree that what Bush did was just a political ploy, much like the other Democrats have used for years.

But you don't understand the point I was trying to make. The AWB expired on its own. If it had not had a built-in expiration date, it would still be the law.

Are you so naive as to believe Bush would have tried to have the law repealed?
 
US vs Miller
The ruling that a sawed off shotgun can be regulated because it is not a militia (military) weapon can be read that military weapons cannot be subject to regulation. So... Why can't I buy an M-16? Hmmm... If only Miller had been caught with a BAR or Thompson. This whole mess could have been avoided.

I believe that what the government actually argued was that THAT SPECIFIC shotgun had not been used in military service, lest they directly lie to the Supreme Court. Absent opposing testimony, our system is not set up so that judges may independently verify that they are being told half-truths.

That's what "judicial notice" is -- "we're not allowed to independently notice that it is a fact that short-barrelled shotguns are military weapons."

And yes, isn't it terribly ironic that Miller is used to justify banning possession of military weapons?


Dex }:>=-
 
If the AWB did not expire would he have pushed to scrap it, probably not.
If Gore or Kerry were president would it have stayed expired, most likely not.

The AWB would not be renewed without white house support. Since Bush did nothing to reauthorize the ban, he helped kill it.

Hypocracy is the same thing as politics. Presidents and polititians have said one thing and done another since this country started.
(No new taxes for Bush Sr. and he raised taxes)
(Kerry saying he is for sensible gun laws while voting on nearly every ban that congress came up with)

Would you rather have a president that says he is for gun control but does nothing to pass gun control laws, or a president that says it and activly passes gun control bills?

Like I said, with Bush's inaction a new AWB law (and potentially broader AWB) did not take it's place. Bush is not the reason the AWB went away, the sunset clause was, however Bush is a reason a new AWB was not passed.

He didn't make it 1 less law, but he helped keep it dead. Not to mention the pro-gun bills he is backing.

Please if you will name the last president that activly sought to eliminate a gun law that did not have a bill of his own to replace it. (not a bill but a law on the books)
 
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