Bush: Military may have to help if bird flu breaks out
- Thread starter rick_reno
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Bush military bird flu role slammed
At least common sense seems to prevail in some corners of our government.
I'm worried about Bush - is the concern over a crappy legacy causing him to lose it? In one week we've gotten him suggesting Harriet Miers as the best person for the court - let's face it, there isn't anyone who can walk and chew gum that believes she is the "best" - and this absurd idea to use the military in a law enforcement role. What's happening here? Remember, this President in a speech on Dec 13, 1999 said
"I will be guided by President Jefferson's sense of purpose, to stand for principle, to be reasonable in manner, and above all, to do great good for the cause of freedom and harmony."
He's not only drifting way off base of this statement, he's speeding away from it.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/10/05/bush.reax/index.html
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A call by President George W. Bush for Congress to give him the power to use the military in law enforcement roles in the event of a bird flu pandemic has been criticized as akin to introducing martial law.
Bush said aggressive action would be needed to prevent a potentially disastrous U.S. outbreak of the disease that is sweeping through Asian poultry and which experts fear could mutate to pass between humans.
Such a deadly event would raise difficult questions, such as how a quarantine might be enforced, the president said.
"I'm concerned about what an avian flu outbreak could mean for the United States and the world," he told reporters during a Rose Garden news conference on Tuesday.
"One option is the use of a military that's able to plan and move," he said. "So that's why I put it on the table. I think it's an important debate for Congress to have."
The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 bans the military from participating in police-type activity on U.S. soil.
But Dr. Irwin Redlener, associate dean of Columbia University's Mailman School of Public Health and director of its National Center for Disaster Preparedness, told The Associated Press the president's suggestion was dangerous.
Giving the military a law enforcement role would be an "extraordinarily Draconian measure" that would be unnecessary if the nation had built the capability for rapid vaccine production, ensured a large supply of anti-virals like Tamiflu and not allowed the degradation of the public health system.
"The translation of this is martial law in the United States," Redlener said.
And Gene Healy, a senior editor at the conservative Cato Institute, said Bush would risk undermining "a fundamental principle of American law" by tinkering with the act, which does not hinder the military's ability to respond to a crisis.
"What it does is set a high bar for the use of federal troops in a policing role," he wrote in a commentary on the group's Web site. "That reflects America's traditional distrust of using standing armies to enforce order at home, a distrust that's well-justified."
Healy said soldiers are not trained as police officers, and putting them in a civilian law enforcement role "can result in serious collateral damage to American life and liberty."
People who catch the worst strain of avian flu can die of viral pneumonia and acute respiratory distress, according to mayoclinic.com.
The disease has killed tens of millions of birds in Asia.
Last week, the U.N.'s health agency, the World Health Organization, sought to ease fears that the disease could kill as many as 150 million people worldwide.
"We're not going to know how lethal the next pandemic is going to be until the pandemic begins," WHO influenza spokesman Dick Thompson said, according to The Associated Press.
The consequences of an outbreak in the United States need to be addressed before catastrophe strikes, Bush said.
The president said he saw things differently than he did as governor of Texas. "I didn't want the president telling me how to be the commander in chief of the Texas Guard," he said.
"But Congress needs to take a look at circumstances that may need to vest the capacity of the president to move beyond that debate. And one such catastrophe or one such challenge could be an avian flu outbreak."
Should avian flu mutate and gain the ability to spread easily from human to human, world leaders and scientists would need rapid access to accurate information to be able to stem its spread, he said.
"We need to know, on a real-time basis, the facts, so the world's scientific community could analyze the facts," he said.
Bush said he had spoken to Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, about work towards a vaccine, but that means of prevention remained a distant hope.
"I take this issue very seriously," Bush said. "I'm not predicting an outbreak, but just suggesting to you we ought to be thinking about it, and we are."
Absent an effective vaccine, public health officials likely would try to stem the disease's spread by isolating people who had been exposed to it. Such a move could require the military, he said.
"I think the president ought to have all options on the table," Bush said, then corrected himself, "all assets on the table -- to be able to deal with something this significant."
Katrina lessons
Bush began discussing the possibility of changing the law banning the military from participating in police-type activity last month, in the aftermath of the government's sluggish response to civil unrest following Hurricane Katrina.
"I want there to be a robust discussion about the best way for the federal government, in certain extreme circumstances, to be able to rally assets for the good of the people," he told reporters September 26.
Last month, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said Bush "wants to make sure that we learn the lessons from Hurricane Katrina," including the use of the military in "a severe, catastrophic-type event."
"The Department of Defense would assume the responsibility for the situation, and come in with an overwhelming amount of resources and assets, to help stabilize the situation," McClellan said.
The World Health Organization has reported 116 cases of avian flu in humans, all of them in Asia. More than half of them have been fatal, it said.
On Thursday, the Senate added $4 billion to a Pentagon spending bill to head off the threat of an outbreak of avian flu among humans. The bulk of the money -- $3 billion -- would be used to stockpile Tamiflu, an antiviral drug that has proved effective against the H5N1 virus -- the strain blamed for six deaths in Indonesia last week.
U.S. health agencies have about 2 million doses of Tamiflu, enough to treat about 1 percent of the population. The money added by the Senate would build that stockpile to cover about 50 percent of the population.
At least common sense seems to prevail in some corners of our government.
I'm worried about Bush - is the concern over a crappy legacy causing him to lose it? In one week we've gotten him suggesting Harriet Miers as the best person for the court - let's face it, there isn't anyone who can walk and chew gum that believes she is the "best" - and this absurd idea to use the military in a law enforcement role. What's happening here? Remember, this President in a speech on Dec 13, 1999 said
"I will be guided by President Jefferson's sense of purpose, to stand for principle, to be reasonable in manner, and above all, to do great good for the cause of freedom and harmony."
He's not only drifting way off base of this statement, he's speeding away from it.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/10/05/bush.reax/index.html
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A call by President George W. Bush for Congress to give him the power to use the military in law enforcement roles in the event of a bird flu pandemic has been criticized as akin to introducing martial law.
Bush said aggressive action would be needed to prevent a potentially disastrous U.S. outbreak of the disease that is sweeping through Asian poultry and which experts fear could mutate to pass between humans.
Such a deadly event would raise difficult questions, such as how a quarantine might be enforced, the president said.
"I'm concerned about what an avian flu outbreak could mean for the United States and the world," he told reporters during a Rose Garden news conference on Tuesday.
"One option is the use of a military that's able to plan and move," he said. "So that's why I put it on the table. I think it's an important debate for Congress to have."
The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 bans the military from participating in police-type activity on U.S. soil.
But Dr. Irwin Redlener, associate dean of Columbia University's Mailman School of Public Health and director of its National Center for Disaster Preparedness, told The Associated Press the president's suggestion was dangerous.
Giving the military a law enforcement role would be an "extraordinarily Draconian measure" that would be unnecessary if the nation had built the capability for rapid vaccine production, ensured a large supply of anti-virals like Tamiflu and not allowed the degradation of the public health system.
"The translation of this is martial law in the United States," Redlener said.
And Gene Healy, a senior editor at the conservative Cato Institute, said Bush would risk undermining "a fundamental principle of American law" by tinkering with the act, which does not hinder the military's ability to respond to a crisis.
"What it does is set a high bar for the use of federal troops in a policing role," he wrote in a commentary on the group's Web site. "That reflects America's traditional distrust of using standing armies to enforce order at home, a distrust that's well-justified."
Healy said soldiers are not trained as police officers, and putting them in a civilian law enforcement role "can result in serious collateral damage to American life and liberty."
People who catch the worst strain of avian flu can die of viral pneumonia and acute respiratory distress, according to mayoclinic.com.
The disease has killed tens of millions of birds in Asia.
Last week, the U.N.'s health agency, the World Health Organization, sought to ease fears that the disease could kill as many as 150 million people worldwide.
"We're not going to know how lethal the next pandemic is going to be until the pandemic begins," WHO influenza spokesman Dick Thompson said, according to The Associated Press.
The consequences of an outbreak in the United States need to be addressed before catastrophe strikes, Bush said.
The president said he saw things differently than he did as governor of Texas. "I didn't want the president telling me how to be the commander in chief of the Texas Guard," he said.
"But Congress needs to take a look at circumstances that may need to vest the capacity of the president to move beyond that debate. And one such catastrophe or one such challenge could be an avian flu outbreak."
Should avian flu mutate and gain the ability to spread easily from human to human, world leaders and scientists would need rapid access to accurate information to be able to stem its spread, he said.
"We need to know, on a real-time basis, the facts, so the world's scientific community could analyze the facts," he said.
Bush said he had spoken to Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, about work towards a vaccine, but that means of prevention remained a distant hope.
"I take this issue very seriously," Bush said. "I'm not predicting an outbreak, but just suggesting to you we ought to be thinking about it, and we are."
Absent an effective vaccine, public health officials likely would try to stem the disease's spread by isolating people who had been exposed to it. Such a move could require the military, he said.
"I think the president ought to have all options on the table," Bush said, then corrected himself, "all assets on the table -- to be able to deal with something this significant."
Katrina lessons
Bush began discussing the possibility of changing the law banning the military from participating in police-type activity last month, in the aftermath of the government's sluggish response to civil unrest following Hurricane Katrina.
"I want there to be a robust discussion about the best way for the federal government, in certain extreme circumstances, to be able to rally assets for the good of the people," he told reporters September 26.
Last month, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said Bush "wants to make sure that we learn the lessons from Hurricane Katrina," including the use of the military in "a severe, catastrophic-type event."
"The Department of Defense would assume the responsibility for the situation, and come in with an overwhelming amount of resources and assets, to help stabilize the situation," McClellan said.
The World Health Organization has reported 116 cases of avian flu in humans, all of them in Asia. More than half of them have been fatal, it said.
On Thursday, the Senate added $4 billion to a Pentagon spending bill to head off the threat of an outbreak of avian flu among humans. The bulk of the money -- $3 billion -- would be used to stockpile Tamiflu, an antiviral drug that has proved effective against the H5N1 virus -- the strain blamed for six deaths in Indonesia last week.
U.S. health agencies have about 2 million doses of Tamiflu, enough to treat about 1 percent of the population. The money added by the Senate would build that stockpile to cover about 50 percent of the population.
ny32182
Member
Just another power grab from our fearless leader.
I'm done voting for anyone with an R or D next to their name. Never again.
I'm done voting for anyone with an R or D next to their name. Never again.
Michigander
Member
(emphasis added)
Ha Ha Ha!!! Too funny!
This is the same "world scientific community" that he thumbs his nose at when it comes to global warming!!!
That's rich!
odysseus
Member
You know, I think a lot of people who aren't thinking about this, easily will look at a thread like this as tin-hatted. I to some degree would too. In fact, we can probably all recall some cogidy old fella talking about how the UN was putting stickers on the backs of street signs in the US to denote waypoints and resources.
Anyway there is a lot of paranoia out there, always has been. However since 911 and Katrina, we keep hearing from the Fed how the bureaucracy of fed government needs more centralization and power. This directly goes against the Federalist ideal or a republic that our Constitution was written by, and one that has worked for over 200 years. The Fed has not solved our issues with large disasters, it is always the people who really get the work done - when I say people, I mean local and neighboring states that come in and do the real long time work.
How does giving the Fed more power over states and localities work better? Did putting FEMA under homeland security make them work better and faster? Why is it that as of late it seems anything that is out there is an immediate cause to lower State power in order for a large Fed power?
Anyway there is a lot of paranoia out there, always has been. However since 911 and Katrina, we keep hearing from the Fed how the bureaucracy of fed government needs more centralization and power. This directly goes against the Federalist ideal or a republic that our Constitution was written by, and one that has worked for over 200 years. The Fed has not solved our issues with large disasters, it is always the people who really get the work done - when I say people, I mean local and neighboring states that come in and do the real long time work.
How does giving the Fed more power over states and localities work better? Did putting FEMA under homeland security make them work better and faster? Why is it that as of late it seems anything that is out there is an immediate cause to lower State power in order for a large Fed power?
TallPine
Member
War on Drugs
War on Terror
War on Bird Flu
War on Terror
War on Bird Flu
seeker_two
Member
The military's role in Avian Flu prevention....
Joejojoba111
Member
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2005
- Messages
- 1,056
Remember when that guy, Alex somthing, was quoted on this forum in a few threads? It made an uproar. One of the most contentious issues was that he quoted a General who stated that if another terrorist attack happened, the country would come under martial law.
People didn't believe it, thought it was fake, out of context, a hoax, anything.
Believe it.
What Bush just did is called a 'trial balloon'. You float it out there and see if it takes any flak. If it isn't shot down terribly, then you know it's safe. This is often why you hear about 'leaks' of this or that. They're trial balloons, guaging public reaction.
It's coming, it's freaking coming. Days, months, years, I dunno, but the police state is honestly coming. Forget about burying your guns, get 'vacation plans' ready and choose a 'vacation destination'.
People didn't believe it, thought it was fake, out of context, a hoax, anything.
Believe it.
What Bush just did is called a 'trial balloon'. You float it out there and see if it takes any flak. If it isn't shot down terribly, then you know it's safe. This is often why you hear about 'leaks' of this or that. They're trial balloons, guaging public reaction.
It's coming, it's freaking coming. Days, months, years, I dunno, but the police state is honestly coming. Forget about burying your guns, get 'vacation plans' ready and choose a 'vacation destination'.
Don't want to sound negative, I've been accused of being eyore from Whinney the Pooh, but I think we're becoming like the frog in the pot. The water is being heated and we just don't notice it.
Think of taking one Jefferson, Hamilton, Franklin or the Adams boys and fast forward to today what do you think they'd say?
Think of taking one Jefferson, Hamilton, Franklin or the Adams boys and fast forward to today what do you think they'd say?
I'm very upset. Bush has never heard of possee comitatus? Or the Constitution?
Both my Senator and my Rep. are getting letters on this, urging them to warn Bush that disabling possee comitatus would be a very bad move for the country.
Both my Senator and my Rep. are getting letters on this, urging them to warn Bush that disabling possee comitatus would be a very bad move for the country.
Lobotomy Boy
Member
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2004
- Messages
- 2,449
Our governor, Tim Pawlenty, who is generally pretty reasonable, supports Bush in his effort to overturn Posse Comitatus. I plan on contacting his office tomorrow and letting him know this stance is unacceptable.
EasternShore
Member
Freudian Slip?
ny32182
Member
I guess he was talking about the VP? heh...
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Let's assume for the moment that this flu does indeed hit into this country, and that it is the Nasty Stuff.
One defense available in order to buy some time is the quarantine. You don't want people who are possibly infected to leave their area and come to yours and spread the disease.
So: What's more important to you and to your community? Allowing freedom of travel by a possibly-diseased person, and you die? Or, quarantine--no travel from an area--and maybe you and your kids--and community--live?
There won't be one elected official against the idea of quarantine, once it occurs to him that he, too, could die. Few among the citizenry will be against it, either; they'll be hostile against almost every outsider. My advice is, Don't Sneeze!
So: Who's gonna enforce this quarantine? Given today's society, do you think there won't be a large number who'll ignore any Order of Quarantine and try to bail out for Somewhere Else? Heck, start with Crips and Bloods and MS-13.
The only way I see to enforce such a quarantine is with people who are more readily willing and able to use force to stop would-be escapees, up to the point of shooting large numbers. I don't see any way out except using the military.
That doesn't mean I like it, or that I expect anybody else to love and cherish the idea. It just seems to me that harsh reality can be painful to all concerned--you, me, political leaders and the enforcers.
Think of a nation, a society, as a living organism. When it's a case of survival of the whole, there is no such thing as a nationaal conscience until later. Way later.
That's what it looks like to me, anyhow...
Art
One defense available in order to buy some time is the quarantine. You don't want people who are possibly infected to leave their area and come to yours and spread the disease.
So: What's more important to you and to your community? Allowing freedom of travel by a possibly-diseased person, and you die? Or, quarantine--no travel from an area--and maybe you and your kids--and community--live?
There won't be one elected official against the idea of quarantine, once it occurs to him that he, too, could die. Few among the citizenry will be against it, either; they'll be hostile against almost every outsider. My advice is, Don't Sneeze!
So: Who's gonna enforce this quarantine? Given today's society, do you think there won't be a large number who'll ignore any Order of Quarantine and try to bail out for Somewhere Else? Heck, start with Crips and Bloods and MS-13.
The only way I see to enforce such a quarantine is with people who are more readily willing and able to use force to stop would-be escapees, up to the point of shooting large numbers. I don't see any way out except using the military.
That doesn't mean I like it, or that I expect anybody else to love and cherish the idea. It just seems to me that harsh reality can be painful to all concerned--you, me, political leaders and the enforcers.
Think of a nation, a society, as a living organism. When it's a case of survival of the whole, there is no such thing as a nationaal conscience until later. Way later.
That's what it looks like to me, anyhow...
Art
Art:
If that's the way it plays out, all it takes is a request from the local/state officials involved, just like Katrina.
No need to go the route Bush wants to take.
If that's the way it plays out, all it takes is a request from the local/state officials involved, just like Katrina.
No need to go the route Bush wants to take.
one45auto
Member
Forget your piddly little bird flus, if something like Ebola ever mutated into an airborne contagion, we'd be completely fornicated - dead in three to five days with no treatment or cure known to man. 
odysseus
Member
Art - like Derek said, why does this have to be Fed?
Most likely an outbreak will be localized in an area at first. I also believe there must be a localized quarantine when combating an highly contagious virus. You are right, not doing so would be a grave mistake to everyone.
However this scenario has been out there for many decades and plans have been drafted. Why does a serious balance of power, possee comitatus, need to be changed? What is it that the states can do that the Fed can do better? The Fed is supposed to be players in supporting the state, as a republic would, to aid a member who needs financial and staff support.
It's where the control is.
Most likely an outbreak will be localized in an area at first. I also believe there must be a localized quarantine when combating an highly contagious virus. You are right, not doing so would be a grave mistake to everyone.
However this scenario has been out there for many decades and plans have been drafted. Why does a serious balance of power, possee comitatus, need to be changed? What is it that the states can do that the Fed can do better? The Fed is supposed to be players in supporting the state, as a republic would, to aid a member who needs financial and staff support.
It's where the control is.
DelayedReaction
Member
- Joined
- May 18, 2004
- Messages
- 645
The idea that fear has debilitated this country to the point where something like the suspension of posse comitus is openly discussed as a solution to a problem is incredible to me.
dmallind
Member
Headless Thompson Gunner
Member
Wouldn't it make more sense to ramp up production of the vaccine? Soldiers to enforce quarantine might make sense in dire circumstances, but it's mostly the wrong solution to the problem. You don't fight an epidemic with bullets and bombs.
There's gotta be more to the story that we don't know about. Look to your tinfoil comspiracies if you'd like. I'll wait I hear something a little more plausible, myself.
Also, remember that most of politics is noise. Wait and see whether Bush puts any serious effort into making this law.
There's gotta be more to the story that we don't know about. Look to your tinfoil comspiracies if you'd like. I'll wait I hear something a little more plausible, myself.
Also, remember that most of politics is noise. Wait and see whether Bush puts any serious effort into making this law.
MICHAEL T
Member
I starting to wonder who really was behind 911. Ever since that day we have been on a fast track giving away our freedoms and excepting a bigger and ever more powerfull Govt.
Now people do we want to give the military a little more power here at home. We know the Police will body slam old ladies and take weapons. But the Army/NG said nope can't do.
Well now lets get rid of the pesky old law. We can blame it on the coming super flu. His daddy couldn't do it but son sure is selling us down the river towards the One World Govt. Whats next re education camps or is he going to skip that and go right to the showers. Bush defender of America
I was dumb and voted for him both times Like anothewr poster last time I vote for a name with a R or D next to it.
Now people do we want to give the military a little more power here at home. We know the Police will body slam old ladies and take weapons. But the Army/NG said nope can't do.
Well now lets get rid of the pesky old law. We can blame it on the coming super flu. His daddy couldn't do it but son sure is selling us down the river towards the One World Govt. Whats next re education camps or is he going to skip that and go right to the showers. Bush defender of America
I was dumb and voted for him both times Like anothewr poster last time I vote for a name with a R or D next to it.
I think everyone is getting way tin-foiled hatted on this thread. If we get a pandemic of a disease that is airborn there will be quarentines and you will be glad. To do otherwise would be stupid. If the military needs to help so be it. Go back and talk to your older parents or grandparents. Go check out the graveyards of all the dead children at an early age when we had no vaccine aganist what we now do not worry about. They did not have effective TB medications when I was in grade school and this was in the 1960's. If you had TB you were by LAW placed in a TB Sanatorium for months. The polio vaccine came out when I was a child. My mother had a sister die of polio at age 13. She told me when there was a case of polio reported in a town NOBODY would go there. She lived in the dread that we would get polio and was overjoyed when a vaccine was developed. This bird flu IF it mutates could be devastating. Think of just burying the bodies here in the US. Talk to your elders.
Thin Black Line
Member
Delayed wrote:
"The idea that fear has debilitated this country to the point where something like the suspension of posse comitus is openly discussed as a solution to a problem is incredible to me."
-------------
Give that man a cigar!
Headless wrote:
"Wouldn't it make more sense to ramp up production of the vaccine?"
-------------
You can't when we don't have a final form of the virus yet.
So are all the people here who advocate travel restrictions for an epidemic
going to follow that for themselves or are they going to be the first to BUG
OUT when things looks bad as is often discussed here? 
"The idea that fear has debilitated this country to the point where something like the suspension of posse comitus is openly discussed as a solution to a problem is incredible to me."
-------------
Give that man a cigar!
Headless wrote:
"Wouldn't it make more sense to ramp up production of the vaccine?"
-------------
You can't when we don't have a final form of the virus yet.
So are all the people here who advocate travel restrictions for an epidemic
going to follow that for themselves or are they going to be the first to BUG
OUT when things looks bad as is often discussed here?
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