Man, I'd love an XCR. The concept is fantastic, but I get scared away by Robinson's internet reputation and internet rumors of single nuts and bolts causing failures. It would be great if the design got picked up by a reputable manufacturer. Oh, and a video game appearance would do wonders for marketing. I'm hoping the XCR takes of eventually.
Bushmaster ACR = Failure?
- Thread starter Matt304
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The XCR is a fantastic rifle. It is fully servicable on the user level. The trick is to loctite everything, OBEY the manuel, and if you order directly from RA you better be willing to wait. They recently changed around a lot of staff members so things from the company's side may be improving but idk. The thing about RA is its a small company and the guy who owns it is a genius and those people tend to be a little cooky. The company could use some improvement, but they put out a great product.
Their earlier product was good, but then they changed it a little and things went bad, and now they're back to good again (from my reading and experience). Its a metal/alluminum body that is lighter than the ACR, really accurate (although not quite AR accurate), great price, and almost entirely customizable. You can change barrel length's, calibers, sights, stocks, rail lengths, add an accessories, etc. The only things holding it back are the company itself (but be realistic people they have their limitations due to size), it wasn't in a video game, and rumors/earlier problems while the design was coming in to its own. But if I remember correctly, the AR wasn't perfect right away either.
All I can say is I'll take two XCR's for the price of one SCAR any day. The ACR can stay in video game land.
The wow factor of video gamers will have no affect on any of these being adopted.
The US Government showed pretty conclusively that a second string commercial maker won't ever get a contract. It's why Armalite sold to Colt, who's made some 9 million variants, plus licensed makers out of the country. For the XCR or Masada, there's no way a contract would be landed. At least now that the ACR has appeared under the Remington label, it will get an honest review by the military.
One important thing often forgotten by this discussion as it's popped up since January is the complete lack of including the Beretta ARX, already fielded and in production. Once the military contracts are fulfilled, who's to say it won't be assembled in Beretta's US plant to meet the Improved Carbine requirements? It has many of the same features of both, in 5.56. Considering Beretta's previous track record, to ignore it now could be embarrassing.
"I won't buy a new fangled rifle" usually falls flat on it's face when the Government issues a contract. Then the latest greatest becomes the standard, and all the sour grapes retreat back to yesteryears rifles and their overrated construction, or belly up and pay up.
Winchester and Springfield Armory both had mini M14's on trial against the AR-15, they didn't win - it was Colt.
I imagine the conversations weren't much different back then, and the surprise and chagrin will be about the same.
The US Government showed pretty conclusively that a second string commercial maker won't ever get a contract. It's why Armalite sold to Colt, who's made some 9 million variants, plus licensed makers out of the country. For the XCR or Masada, there's no way a contract would be landed. At least now that the ACR has appeared under the Remington label, it will get an honest review by the military.
One important thing often forgotten by this discussion as it's popped up since January is the complete lack of including the Beretta ARX, already fielded and in production. Once the military contracts are fulfilled, who's to say it won't be assembled in Beretta's US plant to meet the Improved Carbine requirements? It has many of the same features of both, in 5.56. Considering Beretta's previous track record, to ignore it now could be embarrassing.
"I won't buy a new fangled rifle" usually falls flat on it's face when the Government issues a contract. Then the latest greatest becomes the standard, and all the sour grapes retreat back to yesteryears rifles and their overrated construction, or belly up and pay up.
Winchester and Springfield Armory both had mini M14's on trial against the AR-15, they didn't win - it was Colt.
I imagine the conversations weren't much different back then, and the surprise and chagrin will be about the same.
Joe Demko
Member
None of these new rifles interest me enough to buy one. What does interest me is the level of emotional investment in promoting or hating one over the other by people who have no direct experience with either. They're just rifles. When the government eventually gets around to replacing the M-16 series, the replacement will have problems; and it won't matter which rifle is chosen or who makes it. It happens every time and in every country.
SpeedAKL
Member
It's clear that Bushy got far too aggressive with the price. At $1,400 the gun would sell quite well IMO, as it offers an impressive set of features. If they offered the military 1:7 twist barrel and lowered the price I'd imagine sales would improve significantly.
Joe Demko
Member
It's been a notable year or so for stratospherically priced stuff. The near vaporware Kel-Tec bullpup is another example of a very high priced piece released in tiny numbers offered by a company with a reputation for spotty QC.
RoninPryyst
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I have had Bushmasters for 20 years and I have never had a problem with them. I picked up an ACR about 3 months ago and it works fine. I have had no problems. They put in a new Titanium firing pin and a new spring, but I had not had any problems anyway. I am happy with it. I plan to pick up a SCAR next.
Birddog1911
Member
I'll just say that they only thing about either of these platforms that I find appealing is a folding stock. Other than that, they really don't do anything that my BCM does.
Billy Shears
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Absolutely right. I can tell you as a former infantryman that when you have to carry a rifle on a march with a rucksack that weighs anywhere from 60 to 100 pounds, you resent every extra ounce. We changed over from M60s to M240s when I was in, and the machine gunners may have had a better gun (well actually, there's no may about it), but they hated that it weighed a full five pounds more.
I understand that any rifle meant for the military has to be robust, and that any rifle that has a gas piston will weigh a bit more than a direct impingment design like the M16 series, but I can't for the life of me figure out why they couldn't make the ACR weigh less than it does. Hell, over forty years ago Armalite built an excellent short-stroke piston design -- the AR18 -- that weighed only a few ounces more than the AR15s as they were made at that time, despite being made out of stamped steel. I can't imagine why, today, a rifle that uses so much polymer and aluminum in its construction has to weight so much more than the current generation AR15s, piston or not.
I was hoping for more from the ACR, but I won't buy one at the prices they go for. I'd like to see a piston rifle that can really compete with the AR in weight, ergonomics, and adaptability the way the AR18 had the potential to do.
Quiet
Member
Bushmaster ACR recall!
FYI.
As of 10-15-2010, Bushmaster is recalling all ACR rifles due to a design defect that can cause the rifle to malfunction.
http://www.bushmaster.com/pdf/ACR-Web-Notification.pdf
FYI.
As of 10-15-2010, Bushmaster is recalling all ACR rifles due to a design defect that can cause the rifle to malfunction.
http://www.bushmaster.com/pdf/ACR-Web-Notification.pdf
Not to forget, months ago SOCOM announced it was no longer purchasing SCAR L's as they did nothing better than the issue M4's, which came for free with the soldiers who transferred into their command.
They will continue to purchase a few more SCAR H's for the .308 capability. Apparently the Brits thought more of AR10's and bought those for Afghanistan.
All said and done, the Improved Carbine trials, and eventual long term plan for a new infantry rifle, will bring into service something with controls that will be easy to operate while keeping a sight picture. That means side charger bolt handles for the off hand. Those who have that already integrated have a better chance than those who don't. The other issue is the ability to break away from the fixed straight mag well. The Colt 901 can do that, so can Bushmaster. Anyone making a polymer lower can, too.
With a extruded upper and polymer lower, the ACR has more production versatility to accept government requirements without expensive redesign. It's not all about having a finished reliable design going in, the ability to accept future changes has to be met, too.
They will continue to purchase a few more SCAR H's for the .308 capability. Apparently the Brits thought more of AR10's and bought those for Afghanistan.
All said and done, the Improved Carbine trials, and eventual long term plan for a new infantry rifle, will bring into service something with controls that will be easy to operate while keeping a sight picture. That means side charger bolt handles for the off hand. Those who have that already integrated have a better chance than those who don't. The other issue is the ability to break away from the fixed straight mag well. The Colt 901 can do that, so can Bushmaster. Anyone making a polymer lower can, too.
With a extruded upper and polymer lower, the ACR has more production versatility to accept government requirements without expensive redesign. It's not all about having a finished reliable design going in, the ability to accept future changes has to be met, too.
Birddog1911
Member
It does seem that the 1/7 twist barrels are now available. While their barrels are cold hammer forged, are their barrels MP or HPT tested? Are their bolts? What steel did they use in both of those parts?
Birddog1911
Member
Oops, wrong quote. I was trying to quote the one asking about the barrel twist.
leadcounsel
member
Vaporware... you can't buy what you can't 1) handle or 2) afford... with today's engineering capabilities, CAD, etc, I don't understand why it's so difficult to get a rifle up to speed and to the market at a low ($1300ish) cost.
I read about the Masada in early 2008 in a gun review. I was excited to see, shoot, and even buy one.
Here it is nearly 2011 and I've never even seen one in person. And believe me I have been to plenty of gunstores and gun shows. I don't have much of an opinion of the weapon, either way, other than it took too long and the excitement is over at that pricetag.
I've fired the military SCAR and it was cool, but the civilian price is staggering. I've seen one at the gun range and when the guy told me what he paid I went back and happily shot my $600 AR15.
I've read about the Keltec RFB, but have also never held or seen one in person. Settled on a MSAR for $1300 and am pretty happy with it.
My opinion is that these companies really missed the boat. They could have sold every one of them for under $2000 each had they gotten trucks of them to the market in 2008-2009.
But now, with unemployment at 10% going on 2 years, and all of the other problems with the economy, and the gun market flooded with EBRs, these companies are probably going to have a hard time getting these guns sold at >$1500...
I read about the Masada in early 2008 in a gun review. I was excited to see, shoot, and even buy one.
Here it is nearly 2011 and I've never even seen one in person. And believe me I have been to plenty of gunstores and gun shows. I don't have much of an opinion of the weapon, either way, other than it took too long and the excitement is over at that pricetag.
I've fired the military SCAR and it was cool, but the civilian price is staggering. I've seen one at the gun range and when the guy told me what he paid I went back and happily shot my $600 AR15.
I've read about the Keltec RFB, but have also never held or seen one in person. Settled on a MSAR for $1300 and am pretty happy with it.
My opinion is that these companies really missed the boat. They could have sold every one of them for under $2000 each had they gotten trucks of them to the market in 2008-2009.
But now, with unemployment at 10% going on 2 years, and all of the other problems with the economy, and the gun market flooded with EBRs, these companies are probably going to have a hard time getting these guns sold at >$1500...
Taurus 617 CCW
Member
Never handled one and have never been impressed with the look of them. I don't see the advantage of making a gun with more plastic yet heavier than a regular M-4.
Birddog1911
Member
I have handled, but not shot one. Ergonomics didn't impress me. I absolutely despised the safety selector. It was heavy.
Lead, you have some lousy shops around you; I've seen them at two different shops here. Come to Colorado!
Lead, you have some lousy shops around you; I've seen them at two different shops here. Come to Colorado!
Quiet
Member
Tirod said:
Actually, the UK adopted the LMT MWS-308.
They chose it over the Armalite AR-10, KAC SR-25, FN SCAR-H and H&K HK-417.
type5
Member
It has been a month since the last post above. I just ordered a Black Enhanced ACR for $1858.00 shipped. So those that say it is a failure because of the price point might have a little less to complain about price. Prices do seem to be coming down although Gunbroker prices are still more.
I am happy to have another offering and another choice. There are tons of SCARS around and I chose the new offering 1st because it is not common.
I love FN but in the 80's I could not afford or justify a FAL. I will get a SCAR next but I am holding out for FN 17's to come down some.
I have had a couple of Bustmastre AR type rifles with no problems what so ever. I expect no problems with this on either - but who knows?
Like in most things, time will tell if the ACR will be a failure!
I am happy to have another offering and another choice. There are tons of SCARS around and I chose the new offering 1st because it is not common.
I love FN but in the 80's I could not afford or justify a FAL. I will get a SCAR next but I am holding out for FN 17's to come down some.
I have had a couple of Bustmastre AR type rifles with no problems what so ever. I expect no problems with this on either - but who knows?
Like in most things, time will tell if the ACR will be a failure!
kwelz
Member
Price is only one aspect of it. Weight, barrel, and general lack of promised features play a bigger part of it.
Hani Pasha
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I might be convinced to pay $1800 for an ACR, but it would have to be marginally better in terms of weight--and it would absolutely have to have the ability to swap calibers that Magpul promised us. The ability to have two rifles in one like that--an AK and an AR--was one of the biggest selling of the ACR for me. It was hyped and hyped and hyped and hyped, but as far as I know, there hasn't been a word on the stuff for the 7.62x39mm ACR. That was severely disappointing to me, and we can only hope that Magpul has learned from this debacle and will do better with their Massoud rifle.
As to why the XCR hasn't been popular, I honestly don't really know. Not being in any video games is a big part of it, but I think the bigger problem is simply a lack of marketing. Apart from that it is also 7.5 lbs empty, and doesn't look very good at all either. Finally, while it does use standard AR/M16 magazines, the website implies that proprietary 7.62x39mm magazines are used, whereas the ACR supposedly will use standard AK magazines in 7.62x39mm configuration.
As to why the XCR hasn't been popular, I honestly don't really know. Not being in any video games is a big part of it, but I think the bigger problem is simply a lack of marketing. Apart from that it is also 7.5 lbs empty, and doesn't look very good at all either. Finally, while it does use standard AR/M16 magazines, the website implies that proprietary 7.62x39mm magazines are used, whereas the ACR supposedly will use standard AK magazines in 7.62x39mm configuration.
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stubbicatt
Member
OK. Someone 'splain it to me: How is an interchangeable barrel a feature? After one changes out the barrel, he will have to re-zero his irons and his optic. Wouldn't it be better to have two, less expensive, optics ready rifles, or one lower and a couple upper receivers to obtain this "feature?" Won't have to rezero the piece.
Perhaps if the barrel is shot out it would be nice to be able to readily replace it, but otherwise I do not understand why people think this is a desirable feature?
Perhaps if the barrel is shot out it would be nice to be able to readily replace it, but otherwise I do not understand why people think this is a desirable feature?
sturmgewehr
Member
The XCR hasn't been a smashing hit because of RobArms. They're a small shop with limited funds as they keep focusing on different projects vs. dedicating themselves to a single product. They worked and worked on the M96 project and finally got it to a place where people liked them and they worked well... but they never delivered on the various models they promised including the beltfed kit.
Then, part way through the M96's development cycle, they decided to focus on a new rifle due to the military announcing their interest in a new rifle for SOCOM. So, they dumped their M96 and focused on the XCR. They left the M96 crowd hanging in the wind...
Like the M96, the XCR has had its teething problems with various mistakes being made and manufacturing problems. Since RobArms is a relatively small company, it takes them a while to improve things and get those improvements into production.
I'm glad RobArms is doing what they're doing, I loved my M96 but sold it when it became obvious they were ditching the rifle and dashing my hopes for a Stoner 63A semi-auto belt fed. But today I've decided I'm not beta testing their products anymore and hoping they don't abruptly shift their focus away from the rifle I just bought from them like they did with the M96.
sturmgewehr
Member
The Masada died when Bushmaster bought the rights. Bushmaster will probably eventually work the fleas out, but they may dump the project due to extremely poor sales and ongoing problems before they actually get it working properly.
Here's an example of some of the issues with the rifle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_-v7Jc60zE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAqTpz_B_Ew
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXcteqHaM_o
Keep in mind the guy in that video is a fan of the rifle. He's been very patient and has defended the ACR against those who have attacked it for being a poorly designed/made rifle.
The rifle is plagued with issues. Bushmaster is redesigning gas plugs, springs and gas piston rods still! I mean seriously, this stuff should have been hammered out before the rifle hit the market. Telling your customers the ACR isn't designed to handle the 5.56mm NATO and is designed only for .223 is absolutely ridiculous... the barrel is marked "5.56 NATO".
Anyway, the ACR is an over priced beta rifle that I have no interest in investing in right now. If Bushmaster doesn't cancel the project and actually gets the fleas worked out, I might buy one for review down the road.
Here's an example of some of the issues with the rifle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_-v7Jc60zE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAqTpz_B_Ew
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXcteqHaM_o
Keep in mind the guy in that video is a fan of the rifle. He's been very patient and has defended the ACR against those who have attacked it for being a poorly designed/made rifle.
The rifle is plagued with issues. Bushmaster is redesigning gas plugs, springs and gas piston rods still! I mean seriously, this stuff should have been hammered out before the rifle hit the market. Telling your customers the ACR isn't designed to handle the 5.56mm NATO and is designed only for .223 is absolutely ridiculous... the barrel is marked "5.56 NATO".
Anyway, the ACR is an over priced beta rifle that I have no interest in investing in right now. If Bushmaster doesn't cancel the project and actually gets the fleas worked out, I might buy one for review down the road.
This is plain False. The lie of the year.
SCAR does a lot of things better than M4.
Here's an outstanding in dept technical article, by Hootiewho, that will open the eyes to anyone that cares to read it:
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=62889
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