Buying a gun (any in Tn)

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Rule3

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This is a "general question" not a big deal.
I was on a trip in Tennessee. Stopped in a Rural King (tractor supply all kinds of neat stuff)
Looked at the the firearm sections. Compared the SA Hellcat and the Sig 365 (yes both in stock)

Stared chatting with the gun counter person (young guy) I was not planning on buying one
I said I would like to be able to buy one of them but I was out of State and he said he could not sell to an out of State person. I started to mention transfer to my FFL dealer and he said no, can't do that. they do not do that. OK fine, then I mentioned how about one of those rifles and he again said no. I mentioned I believe that a out of state person can buy a long gun. (not wanting to get in a debate with him) I said it sounds like a Store policy of Rural King (which again is fine)
Nope he says

Then he says the thing about he can only sell a gun to a person who lives in a State touching Tn (Ga, NC)??
Never heard of this??
I tried looking it up but got more confused??

So anyone in TN know the actual LAW of selling a gun to neighboring States? Is that really a TN law)

Again it is for information purposes only, not a big deal.:)
 
So anyone in TN know the actual LAW of selling a gun to neighboring States? Is that really a TN law)

Thats true for a long gun. Ive bought many in TN. I live in NC. Handguns must be in state. I have run into stores that still wouldn't sell to me. Mahoneys was one

As far as shipping thats store policy I guess. Idk. Cabelas ships. Ive been to the Rural king in Bristol. Nice store but very few guns. The ammo was sold out but the prices were more in line with Walmart than marked up like cabelas and the like.
 
Thats true for a long gun. Ive bought many in TN. I live in NC. Handguns must be in state. I have run into stores that still wouldn't sell to me. Mahoneys was one

As far as shipping thats store policy I guess. Idk. Cabelas ships. Ive been to the Rural king in Bristol. Nice store but very few guns. The ammo was sold out but the prices were more in line with Walmart than marked up like cabelas and the like.

But is it a "law" ?
So someone (in my case) Fl can not buy a long gun in Tn??
 
Federally, a handgun has to be transferred to the purchaser by a FFL in the purchaser’s state of residence. A long gun can be purchased by a non-resident at a FFL in any state as long as the laws of both states are followed.

You’re right that the usual workaround for handguns is that you pay for it at the store, then the store ships the handgun to a FFL in the buyer’s state to complete the transaction.

The problem with big box stores is that they construct their policies to the lowest common denominator. It’s much easier to have a policy that they won’t ship handguns than it is to deal with someone buying a handgun, shipping it to a FFL in a restrictive state, and then the buyer realizing that they can’t legally own the weapon and wanting a refund. Too much headache and not enough profit.

Same idea with the long gun stuff. For example, if the buyer is from CA trying to make a purchase in TN, both CA and TN laws have to be followed. I guarantee that the guy behind the counter in TN has no idea how to navigate CA gun law, so instead of making a policy that allows for an individual employee to make the decision, they just say it’s not allowed.

Unfortunately a lot of gun counter employees don’t make an accurate distinction between what is company policy and what is actually law.

The contiguous state thing is a little odd, but I’ve heard it before. I think it comes from some really old legal statutes (I think before the NICS check came into being - so maybe 30+ years?). The other option is, similar to the issues of following multiple states’ laws, the company has decided that the laws of contiguous states are close enough to the laws of TN that there shouldn’t be any issues with a transfer.

While I don’t know it for a fact, I HIGHLY doubt it is the law in TN. It sounds much more like policy/ignorance of the actual law. I’ve heard that same line in multiple places outside of TN.

Final point that just needs to be said, don’t rely on gun store employees to know the law. I once was gifting a pistol to a friend from another state - went to a FFL in their state to make the transfer and the FFL refused saying that person to person transfers were completely legal in their state (even between residents of different states, which is a felony). I finally just said “humor me and make $25 for the transfer fee” and they ran the transfer.
 
It's not specific to gun stores. I've run into other instances where store employees didn't know the difference between a store policy and a law. Or maybe they were just lying to me.
 
one thing employees are encouraged to do at some big stores is say "its the law" because A: 99% of people back down, even if they know they're right, they know they won't win, because the 'stupid employee' thinks its illegal... This is the go-to to get rid of people who just won't accept store rules, without telling them to f- off, and getting the "I want to talk to your manager!!" tantrum... which results in a stubborn jerk (NOT talking about the OP, or anyone on the forum) getting a grocery cart of free stuff as a reward. This I learned early working in the tire industry.... I can't installed your 16 year old tires... its against the law.... I cant patch your sideall, its against the law.... I cant service your car with a missing upper balljoint (really happened)... its the law.... Its just easier.

Reason 2, the big one. In the big stores, Cabelas, Walmart, Home depot, Target... anywhere that sells anything remotely dangerous, the middle management is almost universally college educated fools with no knowledge of the actual procedures. An employee is sometimes required to say "its the law", because these management types often have high bonuses, based largely on customer complaints. They'll do just about anything to get that bonus, but when they hear another employee say "its the law" they back down, because THEY become the fall guy.

Most of the time people like the OP are loosing out because a few 50 year olds with the minds of 5 year olds ruin it for everyone. True story, once at Walmart, I saw a man in his early 60's throwing a full blown screaming tantrum that would put a 2 year old to shame. Reason? He bought a bike six months ago, and the tire went flat. He called it a defect, and he was serious. I asked, "at your age you've never seen a tire go flat from use?" He really hadn't. He walked out with a new bike, and a check for his 'trouble'.
This was just a funny side note, but you also see people wanting to buy just the acid from lead-acid batteries, people demanding their prescriptions be replaced because they were lost, want to buy firearms new at retail without identification (private transfers are legal -whats your problem!), return ammo because they can't take it over the US/Canada border, install tires with ripped beads, dump used oil down the sewers in the parking lot. and while some of those actually are illegal, some its easier just to say it is. In all the above cases except the sell a new firearm without ID, I have seen a manager give in, and order an employee to do those very things. The employee says "I can't do that its illegal", and the manager backs down.

Sorry for the long rant, but I hope its useful if not funny to someone.
 
Sorry, but I just don't countenance anybody intentionally lying. A polite and respectful "I'm sorry sir/madam, but I'm not allowed to [fill in the blank]" should be a sufficient response. No false excuse need be given. If the customer throws a tantrum, then call store security to escort them out. Lying is the easy way out.

Sometimes employees lie because that's what they've been told to say and they don't know the difference. Those employees I can forgive. But not the ones that do it intentionally just to take the easy way out to get rid of the customer.

When they customer wins using such tactics and even when they're in the wrong, they'll just be back to do it again. If they don't win using such tactics, and if you have something they need or want, they'll be back anyway. Managers should know human behavior a little better. It's just sad when they don't.
 
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The 'long guns in contiguous states' was from GCA 1968. I assume in bureaucratic implementing regulation, CFR stuff, not in the law itself, because the requirement was quietly dropped, like signing for ammunition which we had to do for a while.

As I often say, don't get your firearms expertise from a movie... or a store clerk.
 
is it a "law" ?

Idk. It's been enforced for the 20 years I've been going though. I've bought from quite a few (maybe 25 stores over the years. Cabelas and bass pro down to pawn shops) and they all said it except Mahoneys. One of their two stores wouldn't even sell me a long gun. The other store 30 minutes away said they could but the gun was a used gun at the first location so I just forgot about it. Can't really recall what the rifle was either. Must not have wanted it as bad as i thought. I have never seen any evidence is the law but ive also never heard a store with any different policy. Buds in Gatlinburg said the same thing recently.

I also had one store years ago offer to sell me a handgun as a "gift" for my friend from Tennessee because he couldn't buy it there (in nc) Pretty sure thats not right either. Lol. We walked away.

like signing for ammunition which we had to do for a while.

Didn't know that was ever a thing.
 
Didn't know that was ever a thing.

If I remember correctly it was only for pistol ammunition. I seem to remember clerks asking “Rifle or pistol” for 22 ammunition. If the answer was rifle you didn’t need to sign for it. If the answer was pistol you had to sign for it. Somebody didn’t think that one all the way through.
 
Sounds absolutely accurate.

And if you want to buy from RK then do so from RKguns.com and they will ship it to wherever you ask for it to be shipped provided FFL paperwork is in order.
 
All I found for Tennessee is this, refer 39-17-1316 (l)(1)(A)(iii) [emphasis added]:
39-17-1316. Sales of dangerous weapons — Certification of purchaser — Exceptions — Licensing of dealers — Definitions.
(a)
(1) Any person appropriately licensed by the federal government may stock and sell firearms to persons desiring firearms; however, sales to persons who have been convicted of the offense of stalking, as prohibited by § 39-17-315, who are addicted to alcohol, who are ineligible to receive firearms under 18 U.S.C. §  922, or who have been judicially committed to a mental institution pursuant to title 33 or adjudicated as a mental defective are prohibited. For purposes of this subdivision (a)(1), the offense of violation of a protective order as prohibited by § 39-13-113 shall be considered a “misdemeanor crime of domestic violence” for purposes of 18 U.S.C. § 921.
(2) The provisions of this subsection (a) prohibiting the sale of a firearm to a person convicted of a felony shall not apply if:
(A) The person was pardoned for the offense;
(B) The conviction has been expunged or set aside; or
(C) The person's civil rights have been restored pursuant to title 40, chapter 29; and
(D) The person is not prohibited from possessing a firearm by § 39-17-1307.
(b)
(1) As used in this section, “firearm” has the meaning as defined in § 39-11-106, including handguns, long guns, and all other weapons that meet the definition except “antique firearms” as defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921.
(2) As used in this section, “gun dealer” means a person engaged in the business, as defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921, of selling, leasing, or otherwise transferring a firearm, whether the person is a retail dealer, pawnbroker, or otherwise.
(c) Except with respect to transactions between persons licensed as dealers under 18 U.S.C. § 923, a gun dealer shall comply with the following before a firearm is delivered to a purchaser:
(1) The purchaser shall present to the dealer current identification meeting the requirements of subsection (f);
(2) The gun dealer shall complete a firearms transaction record as required by 18 U.S.C. §§ 921-929, and obtain the signature of the purchaser on the record;
(3) The gun dealer shall request by means designated by the bureau that the Tennessee bureau of investigation conduct a criminal history record check on the purchaser and shall provide the following information to the bureau:
(A) The federal firearms license number of the gun dealer;
(B) The business name of the gun dealer;
(C) The place of transfer;
(D) The name of the person making the transfer;
(E) The make, model, caliber and manufacturer's number of the firearm being transferred;
(F) The name, gender, race, and date of birth of the purchaser;
(G) The social security number of the purchaser, if one has been assigned; and
(H) The type, issuer and identification number of the identification presented by the purchaser; and
(4) The gun dealer shall receive a unique approval number for the transfer from the bureau and record the approval number on the firearms transaction record.
(d) Upon receipt of a request of the gun dealer for a criminal history record check, the Tennessee bureau of investigation shall immediately, during the gun dealer's telephone call or by return call:
(1) Determine, from criminal records and other information available to it, whether the purchaser is disqualified under subdivision (a)(1) from completing the purchase; and
(2) Notify the dealer when a purchaser is disqualified from completing the transfer or provide the dealer with a unique approval number indicating that the purchaser is qualified to complete the transfer.
(e)
(1) The Tennessee bureau of investigation may charge a reasonable fee, not to exceed ten dollars ($10.00), for conducting background checks and other costs incurred under this section, and shall be empowered to bill gun dealers for checks run.
(2) Funds collected by the Tennessee bureau of investigation pursuant to this section shall be deposited in a continuing deferred interest-bearing revenue fund that is created in the state treasury. This fund will not revert to the general fund on June 30 of any year. This fund shall be used to offset the costs associated with conducting background checks. By February 1 of each year the Tennessee bureau of investigation shall report to the judiciary committee of the senate and the judiciary committee of the house of representatives the amount of money collected pursuant to this section in excess of the costs associated with conducting background checks as required by this section. The excess money shall be appropriated by the general assembly to the Tennessee bureau of investigation for other law enforcement related purposes as it deems appropriate and necessary.
(f)
(1) Identification required of the purchaser under subsection (c) shall include one (1) piece of current, valid identification bearing a photograph and the date of birth of the purchaser that:
(A) Is issued under the authority of the United States government, a state, a political subdivision of a state, a foreign government, a political subdivision of a foreign government, an international governmental organization or an international quasi-governmental organization; and
(B) Is intended to be used for identification of an individual or is commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of an individual.
(2) If the identification presented by the purchaser under subdivision (f)(1)(A) does not include the current address of the purchaser, the purchaser shall present a second piece of current identification that contains the current address of the purchaser.
(g) The Tennessee bureau of investigation may require that the dealer verify the identification of the purchaser if that identity is in question by sending the thumbprints of the purchaser to the bureau.
(h) The Tennessee bureau of investigation shall establish a telephone number that shall be operational seven (7) days a week between the hours of eight o'clock a.m. and ten o'clock p.m. Central Standard Time (8:00 a.m. – 10:00 p.m. (CST)), except Christmas Day, Thanksgiving Day, and Independence Day, for the purpose of responding to inquiries from dealers for a criminal history record check under this section.
(i) No public employee, official or agency shall be held criminally or civilly liable for performing the investigations required by this section; provided the employee, official or agency acts in good faith and without malice.
(j) Upon the determination that receipt of a firearm by a particular individual would not violate this section, and after the issuance of a unique identifying number for the transaction, the Tennessee bureau of investigation shall destroy all records (except the unique identifying number and the date that it was assigned) associating a particular individual with a particular purchase of firearms.
(k) A law enforcement agency may inspect the records of a gun dealer relating to transfers of firearms in the course of a reasonable inquiry during a criminal investigation or under the authority of a properly authorized subpoena or search warrant.
(l)
(1) The following transactions or transfers are exempt from the criminal history record check requirement of subdivision (c)(3):
(A) Transactions between licensed:
(i) Importers;
(ii) Manufacturers;
(iii) Dealers; and
(iv) Collectors who meet the requirements of subsection (b) and certify prior to the transaction the legal and licensed status of both parties;
(B) Transactions or transfers between a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer and a bona fide law enforcement agency or the agency's personnel. However, all other requirements of subsection (c) are applicable to a transaction or transfer under this subdivision (l)(1)(B); and
(C) Transactions by a gun dealer, as defined in subdivision (b)(2), making occasional sales, exchanges, or transfers of firearms that comprise all or part of the gun dealer's personal collection of firearms.
(2) The burden of proving the legality of any transaction or transfer under this subsection (l) is upon the transferor.
(m) The director of the Tennessee bureau of investigation is authorized to make and issue all rules and regulations necessary to carry out this section.
(n) In addition to the other grounds for denial, the bureau shall deny the transfer of a firearm if the background check reveals information indicating that the purchaser has been charged with a crime for which the purchaser, if convicted, would be prohibited under state or federal law from purchasing, receiving, or possessing a firearm; and, either there has been no final disposition of the case, or the final disposition is not noted.
(o) Upon receipt of the criminal history challenge form indicating a purchaser's request for review of the denial, the bureau shall proceed with efforts to obtain the final disposition information. The purchaser may attempt to assist the bureau in obtaining the final disposition information. If neither the purchaser nor the bureau is able to obtain the final disposition information within fifteen (15) calendar days of the bureau's receipt of the criminal history challenge form, the bureau shall immediately notify the federal firearms licensee that the transaction that was initially denied is now a “conditional proceed.” A “conditional proceed” means that the federal firearms licensee may lawfully transfer the firearm to the purchaser.
(p) In any case in which the transfer has been denied pursuant to subsection (n), the inability of the bureau to obtain the final disposition of a case shall not constitute the basis for the continued denial of the transfer as long as the bureau receives written notice, signed and verified by the clerk of the court or the clerk's designee, that indicates that no final disposition information is available. Upon receipt of the letter by the bureau, the bureau shall immediately reverse the denial.
(q)
(1) It is an offense for a person to purchase or attempt to purchase a firearm knowing that the person is prohibited by state or federal law from owning, possessing or purchasing a firearm.
(2) It is an offense to sell or offer to sell a firearm to a person knowing that the person is prohibited by state or federal law from owning, possessing or purchasing a firearm.
(3) It is an offense to transfer a firearm to a person knowing that the person:
(A) Has been judicially committed to a mental institution or adjudicated as a mental defective unless the person's right to possess firearms has been restored pursuant to title 16; or
(B) Is receiving inpatient treatment, pursuant to title 33, at a treatment resource, as defined in § 33-1-101, other than a hospital.
(4) A violation of this subsection (q) is a Class A misdemeanor.
(r) The criminal history records check required by this section shall not apply to an occasional sale of a used or second-hand firearm by a person who is not engaged in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, pursuant to 18 U.S.C. §§ 921 and 923.
The tricky part would be in conveying that a buyer was acting in agency of an extra-State FFL.

But, it would be 'legal' for RK to sell to a FL FFL. Might be against store policy, but legal.
In reading TN firearms laws, they are very enlightened and favorable to firearms owners.

I went looking for the old GCA '68 language to cite, but my google-fu was dry.
 
Well seems like another "rabbit hole" Lets forget the store policy , shipping, transfer, ammo and all that.

How about just " The neighboring state policy only.? I do not see how that is possible if it is true? If it is, then is the reverse also true?. Can a person from Tn buy a gun in NC or Georgia??
I can not find it under any Tn law??
 
Well seems like another "rabbit hole" Lets forget the store policy , shipping, transfer, ammo and all that.

How about just " The neighboring state policy only.? I do not see how that is possible if it is true? If it is, then is the reverse also true?. Can a person from Tn buy a gun in NC or Georgia??
I can not find it under any Tn law??

It's no longer limited to neighboring states only. It only applies to Rifles and Shotguns (it don't work for handguns), and the transfer has to comply with the state law of both states. Please refer to 18 USC 922(b)(3) for the details.
 
I can not find it under any Tn law??
Neither can I; but, I have this recollection it was part of the original GCA '68 language, but I'm not finding that text to snip and quote.
Please refer to 18 USC 922(b)(3) for the details.
The current text of that is:
(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—
(3)
any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee’s place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee’s place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

What I'm not finding is the original text from 1968, which might include the contiguous States language.
 
OK I am gonna call this a MYTH BUSTED. Regardless of what some gun-shop guru said. I do not believe a handgun can be sold to an out of State resident without transferring it through and to a FFL.
Plus a rifle can be purchased by an out of State person providing the store policy agrees with it and the person is allowed to in his/her own State.
 
Neither can I; but, I have this recollection it was part of the original GCA '68 language, but I'm not finding that text to snip and quote.

The current text of that is:


What I'm not finding is the original text from 1968, which might include the contiguous States language.

Capt,

I also recall the "Contiguous State" language being in the statute at some previous point in time. I do not see it there today. There have been a number of changes to Title 18, Section 922 through the years. I tried to browse through the most recent of them, but the volume of material was just too voluminous.
 
i can't point to a law, but i can tell you that's the way it works here in TN. handguns have to be transferred to in state FFL per fed law. long guns can transfer to residents of adjacent states (which for TN turns out to be quite a few (MS AL GA NC VA KY AR MO). That's the way every gun store i know does it. (I haven't dealt with big box stores, just LGS)
 
The "Legal Information Institute" of Cornell Law has "notes" about amendments, etc.. They show:

Subsec. (b)(3)(A). Pub. L. 99–308, § 102(4)(B), inserted a new cl. (A) and struck out former cl. (A) which provided that par. (3) “shall not apply to the sale or delivery of a rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State contiguous to the State in which the licensee’s place of business is located if the purchaser’s State of residence permits such sale or delivery by law, the sale fully complies with the legal conditions of sale in both such contiguous States, and the purchaser and the licensee have, prior to the sale, or delivery for sale, of the rifle or shotgun, complied with all of the requirements of section 922(c) applicable to intrastate transactions other than at the licensee’s business premises,”.

The substitution was the result of Public Law 99-308, of May 19, 1986. Google has the amendment list, but not the "prior" language: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/STATUTE-100/pdf/STATUTE-100-Pg449.pdf#page=3

Is this what you were looking for?

--
Michael
 
The "Legal Information Institute" of Cornell Law has "notes" about amendments, etc.. They show:

Subsec. (b)(3)(A). Pub. L. 99–308, § 102(4)(B), inserted a new cl. (A) and struck out former cl. (A) which provided that par. (3) “shall not apply to the sale or delivery of a rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State contiguous to the State in which the licensee’s place of business is located if the purchaser’s State of residence permits such sale or delivery by law, the sale fully complies with the legal conditions of sale in both such contiguous States, and the purchaser and the licensee have, prior to the sale, or delivery for sale, of the rifle or shotgun, complied with all of the requirements of section 922(c) applicable to intrastate transactions other than at the licensee’s business premises,”.

The substitution was the result of Public Law 99-308, of May 19, 1986. Google has the amendment list, but not the "prior" language: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/STATUTE-100/pdf/STATUTE-100-Pg449.pdf#page=3

Is this what you were looking for?

--
Michael

Michael, Thanks for the research. It looks like you have very correctly identified the source of the change.
 
The "Legal Information Institute" of Cornell Law has "notes" about amendments, etc.. They show:

Subsec. (b)(3)(A). Pub. L. 99–308, § 102(4)(B), inserted a new cl. (A) and struck out former cl. (A) which provided that par. (3) “shall not apply to the sale or delivery of a rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State contiguous to the State in which the licensee’s place of business is located if the purchaser’s State of residence permits such sale or delivery by law, the sale fully complies with the legal conditions of sale in both such contiguous States, and the purchaser and the licensee have, prior to the sale, or delivery for sale, of the rifle or shotgun, complied with all of the requirements of section 922(c) applicable to intrastate transactions other than at the licensee’s business premises,”.

The substitution was the result of Public Law 99-308, of May 19, 1986. Google has the amendment list, but not the "prior" language: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/STATUTE-100/pdf/STATUTE-100-Pg449.pdf#page=3

Is this what you were looking for?

--
Michael


Yes, Thank you, so it is true?
 
i can't point to a law, but i can tell you that's the way it works here in TN. handguns have to be transferred to in state FFL per fed law. long guns can transfer to residents of adjacent states (which for TN turns out to be quite a few (MS AL GA NC VA KY AR MO). That's the way every gun store i know does it. (I haven't dealt with big box stores, just LGS)

Just to clarify, when you say long guns can be transferred , that means sold to, yes?
I always think transfer means to another State/FFL, but I take it that legal wording, a transfer is actually the point of sale as well.
 
it means physical possession. like i can buy a suppressor and then i own it, but it takes a couple months to transfer into my hands physically
 
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