Buying a gun while out of state.

[corton93]

Been awhile since I posted. I live and maintain my permanent address in Alabama, but for the next 3 months will be living in Iowa for work. Not getting residency in Iowa or doing a change of address or anything, just renting an apartment for 3 months.

My question, I know that I could go to any FFL dealer in Iowa and purchase a long gun. But would it still work the same with buying online? Say I purchase a rifle from BudsGunShop and put in all my payment info with my home address in alabama, but have it shipped to an FFL in Iowa. Would there be any problem with that, either on the sellers side or the receiving FFL? Thanks yall.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

I would find the local FFL and see if they are good with that. Getting a bit twisted, and even if totally legal they may not want to get into it. In the end, they have to be good with the transfer.

I think I would just have it shipped to and FFL I knew in AL and have it waiting for me when I got back. Much simpler.

 

[il.bill]

... just renting an apartment for 3 months.

My question, I know that I could go to any FFL dealer in Iowa and purchase a long gun. ... .

I am curious how you know that to be true. Have you looked into the state laws in both Iowa and Alabama, since they would BOTH apply, as well as Federal law, to any such purchase?

I live next door in Illinois (clearly a whole different firearm buying world) and as an FFL I can transfer a rifle or shotgun to an out of state resident in basically two situations: a) the Transferee lives in a state that literally touches mine; b) the non-Illinois resident has a current out-of-state Illinois Hunting License.

Yes, Iowa and Illinois gun laws are very likely like comparing apples and oranges (or maybe corn and soybeans would be more appropriate), but have you confirmed what Iowa and Alabama say about this?

 

[corton93]

I am curious how you know that to be true. Have you looked into the state laws in both Iowa and Alabama, since they would BOTH apply, as well as Federal law, to any such purchase?

I live next door in Illinois (clearly a whole different firearm buying world) and as an FFL I can transfer a rifle or shotgun to an out of state resident in basically two situations: a) the Transferee lives in a state that literally touches mine; b) the non-Illinois resident has a current out-of-state Illinois Hunting License.

Yes, Iowa and Illinois gun laws are very likely like comparing apples and oranges (or maybe corn and soybeans would be more appropriate), but have you confirmed what Iowa and Alabama say about this?

That's correct. I actually bought a used Noveske from a store in Texas about a year ago while we were there visiting family.

"A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes."

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

Per the ATF you can purchase and take possession of long guns across state lines, both private party or through a dealer as long as all transactions are through an FFL. Regardless of state residency (with a few exceptions like california). Although the state rules of your home residence must be followed by the FFL. If, for example, you living in Illinois were to come to Iowa and buy a long gun, the FFL in Iowa would have to inforce your states 3 day waiting period before you could take possession, even though Iowa has no waiting period. Alabama and Iowa are the same so it wouldn't be an issue for me either way.

Edit: Other state rules have to be inforced also. IE, California guy could not come to Iowa and buy a high capacity firearm, FFL would refuse the sale, etc. Have also confirmed with the FFL in Iowa that I would be purchasing from. He said no issue.

 

[bearcreek]

My question, I know that I could go to any FFL dealer in Iowa and purchase a long gun. But would it still work the same with buying online? Say I purchase a rifle from BudsGunShop and put in all my payment info with my home address in alabama, but have it shipped to an FFL in Iowa. Would there be any problem with that, either on the sellers side or the receiving FFL? Thanks yall.

Don't see how it would be any different. As far as the ATF and FBI are concerned, you're taking possession of the weapon from the FFL. It gets entered into the FFL's records the same way that one that he/she sells does. How it (legally) got to the FFL is irrelevant.

 

[NuShootr]

I would look into each State's laws. I know that I can't do that living in NJ. There are too many ways to circumvent the state requirements on firearms if they allowed us to do that.

 

[bearcreek]

I would look into each State's laws. I know that I can't do that living in NJ. There are too many ways to circumvent the state requirements on firearms if they allowed us to do that.

You can't do what living in NJ? Buy a gun out of state or NJ FFL can't sell a gun to a non-resident?

 

[CapnMac]

In the simple of it, federally, buying out of state uses either one or two FFL, depending upon just what you are buying.
Then, State laws then apply.
Everything else then devolves to specifics.

 

[Elkins45]

Deleted. I answered my own question.

 

[NuShootr]

You can't do what living in NJ? Buy a gun out of state or NJ FFL can't sell a gun to a non-resident?

I think I misunderstood what the OP was asking. My bad.

 

[bearcreek]

I think I misunderstood what the OP was asking. My bad.

I may have misunderstood you actually. Were you talking about ordering a gun online? As far as state laws go, Iowa is actually more restrictive than the OP's home state of Alabama (Iowa requires a permit to purchase handguns), but as far as acquiring and owning long guns go, they're the same. No restrictions, registrations or other infringements in either case, other than the nationwide federal ones.

 

[dogtown tom]

This has been beat to death on THR many, many times.

Been awhile since I posted. I live and maintain my permanent address in Alabama, but for the next 3 months will be living in Iowa for work. Not getting residency in Iowa or doing a change of address or anything, just renting an apartment for 3 months....

Three months in Iowa? Then you ain't living in Alabama.
For the purposes of acquiring firearms, ATF considers you a resident of the state where you make your home. It doesn't matter where you vote, pay taxes or where your DL is issued, nor what you consider as your permanent address. See ATF Ruling 2010-6 State of Residence: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2010-6-state-residence/download

All you would need in addition to your AL drivers license is another government issued document showing your name and current address in Iowa.....and you can buy ANY firearm, handguns included. Although the instructions on the Form 4473 completely and fully explain this, some dealers would refuse the sale because you don't have a DL or ID from their state.

Further, and most importantly, you must answer the questions on the Form 4473 truthfully........especially where it asks for "current state of residence and address". Since you are living in Iowa, you'll put your current address in Iowa. If you write in your address in Alabama you commit a violation of federal law.....because you aren't currently living in Alabama.
Again, what ATF considers as your state of residence is often not what you might consider as your state of residence. For all their faults in everything else gun related, ATF's interpretation of state of residence is pretty darn liberal and makes it easy to acquire firearms wherever you live.

 

[bearcreek]

Three months in Iowa? Then you ain't living in Alabama.

At what point during his three month stay in Iowa would he begin "making his home there"? That's kinda part of the requirement, no?

 

[corton93]

At what point during his three month stay in Iowa would he begin "making his home there"? That's kinda part of the requirement, no?

That was part of the equation I considered also. Per Iowa's state website, you are considered a permanent resident AFTER 90 days of residency, then I would be legally obligated to get an Iowa DL and stuff, but not before 90 days regardless if a have a mailing address in Iowa or not.

 

[dogtown tom]

At what point during his three month stay in Iowa would he begin "making his home there"? That's kinda part of the requirement, no?

The minute HE considers it his home.
From that ATF ruling:

Held further, the intention of making a home in a State must be demonstrated to a Federal firearms licensee by presenting valid identification documents. Such documents include, but are not limited to, driver’s licenses, voter registration, tax records, or vehicle registration.

Any government issued document will work just fine. Send a letter to the local city/county/state and ask for a written response......bingo!

 

[dogtown tom]

That was part of the equation I considered also. Per Iowa's state website, you are considered a permanent resident AFTER 90 days of residency, then I would be legally obligated to get an Iowa DL and stuff, but not before 90 days regardless if a have a mailing address in Iowa or not.

AGAIN, what Iowa requires for the purposes of driving, voting, paying taxes, etc is irrelevant. Now, if Iowa has a state law that requires you to reside in Iowa for a certain number of days o apply or get a firearm purchase permit.....then yes, you need to abide by that.
For the purposes of acquiring a firearm, federal law and ATF regs consider you a resident of the state where you make your home.

 

[bearcreek]

The minute HE considers it his home.

Right. Clearly, he has no intention of making or considering it his home at any time during his temporary stay. The OP is welcome to correct me, but it seems quite clear that he still intends to call Alabama his home. I'm not saying he couldn't get away with it, lots of people get away with things that are a whole lot more clearly illegal. I've stayed in other states for a month for work before. Could I have simply "considered" that my home and bought guns there as a resident even though I was clearly there temporarily for work?

 

[bearcreek]

That was part of the equation I considered also. Per Iowa's state website, you are considered a permanent resident AFTER 90 days of residency, then I would be legally obligated to get an Iowa DL and stuff, but not before 90 days regardless if a have a mailing address in Iowa or not.

As Tom pointed out, Iowa's opinion on residency as it relates to anything other than gun purchasing and/or permitting is unrelated and irrelevant. I was talking about how the ATF would look at it, not Iowa.

 

[dogtown tom]

Right. Clearly, he has no intention of making or considering it his home at any time during his temporary stay.

While he might consider Alabama his permanent home, he better be damned carful in filling out that 4473. Living three months away from Alabama would make me more than hesitant to list an Alabama address as my current residence address.
I'm sure he's going to be getting mail delivered to this IA address, that makes it a bit different than a weekend at the Sioux City Hilton.

The OP is welcome to correct me, but it seems quite clear that he still intends to call Alabama his home.
I'm not saying he couldn't get away with it, lots of people get away with things that are a whole lot more clearly illegal.

He's not "getting away" with anything. ATF clearly recognises that living away from your "normal" residence occurs.....such as specifically mentioning college students being a resident while living in a dorm. Further, many people have more than one residence, ie snowbirds.

I've stayed in other states for a month for work before. Could I have simply "considered" that my home and bought guns there as a resident even though I was clearly there temporarily for work?

Read the ATF ruling. What you "are there for" doesn't matter.

 

[bearcreek]

Living three months away from Alabama would make me more than hesitant to list an Alabama address as my current residence address.

Is there a specific amount of time before which you wouldn't feel hesitant? If he was only going to be there for a month would you say the same thing?

I'm sure he's going to be getting mail delivered to this IA address, that makes it a bit different than a weekend at the Sioux City Hilton.

I must have missed where he said that.

He's not "getting away" with anything.

Depends how you look at it. Seems like he'd be "getting away with it" if he listed Iowa as his home, since he clearly has no intention of "making a home there". On the other hand, maybe he'd be "getting away with it" if he listed Alabama as his home, since he's visiting Iowa for a few months. We're both just guessing though, unless we can find an ATF ruling that addresses this specific scenario. They do specifically address the out of state for college and the out of state for the military question, but not out of state temporarily for work question (that I'm aware of).

Read the ATF ruling. What you "are there for" doesn't matter.

We don't really know if it matters, that's the kicker. I suspect that if such an issue came up in court, "what you're there for", probably would matter, since it might be used to determine if you're there to "make a home" or not.

 

[dogtown tom]

Is there a specific amount of time before which you wouldn't feel hesitant? If he was only going to be there for a month would you say the same thing?

Nope. But few people would go to the trouble of getting the required documentation to show your intent.....for a stay of a weekend or even a month.
And since you asked...........what specific amount of time before you wouldn't be hesitant? Six months? A year? Two years? I have a neighbor that has told me for two years he plans to move back to California.

I must have missed where he said that.

I didn't say he said that.

Depends how you look at it. Seems like he'd be "getting away with it" if he listed Iowa as his home, since he clearly has no intention of "making a home there".

Sigh.
He CAN show intention by following that ATF Ruling.

On the other hand, maybe he'd be "getting away with it" if he listed Alabama as his home, since he's visiting Iowa for a few months. We're both just guessing though, unless we can find an ATF ruling that addresses this specific scenario. They do specifically address the out of state for college and the out of state for the military question, but not out of state temporarily for work question (that I'm aware of).

There is no difference. Again, the procedure is stated in that ATF Ruling.

We don't really know if it matters, that's the kicker. I suspect that if such an issue came up in court, "what you're there for", probably would matter, since it might be used to determine if you're there to "make a home" or not.

Oh it matters. It's a violation of federal law to falsify the information on the Form 4473.

 

[bearcreek]

Read the ATF ruling. What you "are there for" doesn't matter.

Oh it matters. It's a violation of federal law to falsify the information on the Form 4473.

Now I'm confused. First you said it doesn't matter, then you said it does. Does what you're there for matter, or not?

 

[bearcreek]

And since you asked...........what specific amount of time before you wouldn't be hesitant? Six months? A year? Two years? I have a neighbor that has told me for two years he plans to move back to California.

No, I don't have a specific amount of time. Neither does the ATF, AFAIK. However, if I was traveling for work, for a previously determined, short amount of time, like three months, and I wasn't buying property or signing a long term rental agreement (one year is common) and I was maintaining control or ownership of my home in my "home" state, I think I wouldn't have a hard time proving to a court that my home state, the state where my "home" is located (not my hotel or short term rental house/room) is my state of residence.

 

[Insignificant bill]

He is saying filling out the 4473 properly is what matters. Not the reason he is in Iowa.

 

[bearcreek]

He is saying filling out the 4473 properly is what matters. Not the reason he is in Iowa.

Could be. Based on Tom's posts in other threads I thought he had better reading comprehension than that though. Obviously I wasn't talking about filling out the 4473. Look at post #20. I was talking about the part of his post that I quoted. That's why I quoted it. That's what the quote feature is for, so people know to whom and in reference to what we are responding.