I just noticed the back of my C&R license says the holder is permitted to "buy or sell" C&R firearms. Notice I didn't say and. Sooooooo I knew it permitted me of course to have C&R stuff come directly to me, but I can do one or the other? Or does it actually permit both? I didn't know you could sell without a storefront and a different type of license, or can you? If I can, how would I set up the NICS and everything?
C&R and selling guns?
- Thread starter greenr18
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morcey2
Member
An 03 FFL doesn't qualify you to conduct a business. You need an 01 FFL to do that. Much more involved. You can sell guns in your collection to manage your collection, but if it starts to look to the ATF like you're in the business of selling guns, they'll not take to kindly to it. And, no, it's not either "buy" or "sell". You can do both.
That's the condensed version.
Matt
stonecutter2
Member
If it's within your state, you can do a face to face sale per state law or ship directly if the buyer also has an FFL03. If it's across state lines, and both parties have FFL03 licenses, you can ship to the buyer directly. No NICS or FFL01 transfer necessary.
You must record the disposal of the firearm in your bound book with the buyers FFL03 number or other basic identifying information (name and address...drivers license number? Can't exactly remember).
If the buyer does not have an FFL03 and its across state lines you must transfer via an FFL01 just like any other firearm sale.
The FFL03 makes transferring to like licensed collectors very convenient and is meant to ease interstate exchanges of eligible firearms.
You should not be selling as though you are a business. You are a collector, not a dealer. That said, this can be a gray area...you could buy a crate of Mosins and cherry pick some then sell the rest...no harm done. There is no stipulation of profit margins or anything from the ATF. Use your best judgment.
You must record the disposal of the firearm in your bound book with the buyers FFL03 number or other basic identifying information (name and address...drivers license number? Can't exactly remember).
If the buyer does not have an FFL03 and its across state lines you must transfer via an FFL01 just like any other firearm sale.
The FFL03 makes transferring to like licensed collectors very convenient and is meant to ease interstate exchanges of eligible firearms.
You should not be selling as though you are a business. You are a collector, not a dealer. That said, this can be a gray area...you could buy a crate of Mosins and cherry pick some then sell the rest...no harm done. There is no stipulation of profit margins or anything from the ATF. Use your best judgment.
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MachIVshooter
Member
AS morcey said, it's not a dealer license, but you can certainly sell some. If, for instance, you ordered a couple of "hand pick" K11 carbines and chose the nicest of the 2 to keep, you can sell the other. But you cannot order 50 and sell 49, then do it again the next month with some other milsurp.
At this time, there still is not a hard and fast number on how many guns you can sell before being considered "engaged in the business", so just be prudent. Disposing of a handful each year won't raise any eyebrows.
Just be sure to log them properly in your A&D book. That is still required in a FTF private sale if it is a firearm you purchased with your C&R.
At this time, there still is not a hard and fast number on how many guns you can sell before being considered "engaged in the business", so just be prudent. Disposing of a handful each year won't raise any eyebrows.
Just be sure to log them properly in your A&D book. That is still required in a FTF private sale if it is a firearm you purchased with your C&R.
giggitygiggity
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Does anyone have any cases, any whatsoever, that they can reference where someone with a C&R got arrested and charged for dealing in firearms? Until the buying/selling conditions that trigger an illegal action is made more specific, it is pretty difficult to prove that an FFL03 purchased firearms with the intent to sell at a profit. And no where does it say that I cannot buy a gun and sell at a profit. Just because I have an FFL03 does not mean that every C&R that I sell needs to be sold at a loss or break even just so no one can say that I sold for a profit and confuse this with dealing in or running a firearms business. And the prosecution would be hard-pressed convicting someone of dealing in firearms even if they buy 50 guns and sell 49 each month. Who's to say that I don't want a larger pool of guns from which I can hand-pick my favorite? Who's to say that I do not have something going on in my life that requires money (wedding, baby, divorce, college, etc) and am selling my collection for funds? Am I required to sell those 49 at a loss or never sell them because doing so would constitute dealing in firearms and committing a crime? I think not. Now if you had a C&R and had a storefront where you began selling guns, that might trigger some red flags if someone reported you to the ATF.
Again, I challenge someone to find case law to help define the buy/sell limits of a C&R. I doubt there is much, if any, out there because the law is vague and the ATF knows that such charges will likely not stick in court.
With that being said, I do not advise pushing your luck. I use my FFL03 for collecting. I do not have any intent to sell anything that I buy with my FFL03. However, if my life circumstances change and I do need to sell my collection, I would sell for as much money as I could get for my guns and C&Rs can appreciate greatly even over the course of a year or two.
I think most of us know the spirit of an FFL03 and although we can likely get away with buying/selling guns outside of the designs of the FFL03, it does not make it right or legal and it is not advisable.
Again, I challenge someone to find case law to help define the buy/sell limits of a C&R. I doubt there is much, if any, out there because the law is vague and the ATF knows that such charges will likely not stick in court.
With that being said, I do not advise pushing your luck. I use my FFL03 for collecting. I do not have any intent to sell anything that I buy with my FFL03. However, if my life circumstances change and I do need to sell my collection, I would sell for as much money as I could get for my guns and C&Rs can appreciate greatly even over the course of a year or two.
I think most of us know the spirit of an FFL03 and although we can likely get away with buying/selling guns outside of the designs of the FFL03, it does not make it right or legal and it is not advisable.
jerkface11
Member
Didn't the president issue an exec order defining "in the business" as 50 or more guns a year?
stonecutter2
Member
I didnt hear he had signed these.
AFAIK, no one has put any specific numbers of sales on the definition of a dealer. (And if they did, it would be in a BATFE regulation, not a presidential order. (Have we got Executive Orders on the brain recently?) BATFE prefers to handle each case on an ad hoc basis so they have leeway to either hand out a quiet warning or really crack down, depending on the situation.
BTW, note that discussions of the actions permitted or prohibited under an 03 FFL always apply ONLY to C&R items. If a C&R item is not involved (say a modern Glock or Remington 700) the 03 FFL is irrelevant and it is as if it did not exist. So and 03 FFL holder can legally ship a WWI Luger or a WWII STEN* gun directly to another 03 FFL across state lines, or transfer it face to face to another 03 FFL holder anywhere in the U.S. unless state law says otherwise. But if the gun is that Glock, an 01 FFL has to be the recipient (though not the sender) of an interstate transfer.
I have heard that BATFE has asked distributors to notify them if an 03 FFL holder orders a quantity of the same gun, especially handguns. So anyone planning to buy a couple of thousand C&R items on his 03 FFL and peddle them to friends and neighbors might want to reconsider.
Jim
*After the usual NFA paperwork.
Jim
BTW, note that discussions of the actions permitted or prohibited under an 03 FFL always apply ONLY to C&R items. If a C&R item is not involved (say a modern Glock or Remington 700) the 03 FFL is irrelevant and it is as if it did not exist. So and 03 FFL holder can legally ship a WWI Luger or a WWII STEN* gun directly to another 03 FFL across state lines, or transfer it face to face to another 03 FFL holder anywhere in the U.S. unless state law says otherwise. But if the gun is that Glock, an 01 FFL has to be the recipient (though not the sender) of an interstate transfer.
I have heard that BATFE has asked distributors to notify them if an 03 FFL holder orders a quantity of the same gun, especially handguns. So anyone planning to buy a couple of thousand C&R items on his 03 FFL and peddle them to friends and neighbors might want to reconsider.
Jim
*After the usual NFA paperwork.
Jim
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He hasn't. Supposed to be something in the pipeline but its probably going to get shot down by the courts anyway. The emperor has no clothes.
Captcurt
Member
It is a misconception that a dealer must have a store front. I asked the ATF agent about it and he said that there are a lot of homebased dealers. However, there are several wholesale distributors who refuse to sell to a dealer without a store front.
jonnyc
Member
"That is still required in a FTF private sale if it is a firearm you purchased with your C&R."
.....or any C&R Eligible firearm that you possess, whether you got it before or during the time you are a licensed 03.
.....or any C&R Eligible firearm that you possess, whether you got it before or during the time you are a licensed 03.
il.bill
Member
jonnyc is right -
For example: if you bought a Mosin-Nagant (or any C&R eligible firearm) X-number of years ago and receive your 03FFL today, you are not required to enter it into your A&D Bound Book unless you want to, as long as it is stays in your possession. If you dispose of it in any way while holding the 03FFL, that Mosin must be entered as an acquisition (from your own private / prior collection) and as a disposition to whomever it went. The record keeping requirement applies to any C&R eligible firearm which you acquire or dispose in any way while holding the 03FFL.
tark
Member
Last time the ATF did a compliance on Les, I asked one of the agents what the rules were for selling a gun acquired with my C&R licence. I was told that C&R guns can only be sold to other C&R holders, and no one else. I was also told that the ATF wasn't too concerned with how many guns you BOUGHT, but rather how many you SOLD. If they saw a high volume of turnover they got suspicious.
I'm wondering about the agent's answer, because it is contrary to what I have heard about who you could sell a C&R gun to . I thought you could sell it to any one as long as local and Federal laws were followed. As long as you weren't making a business out of it.
Any thoughts/ new info?
I'm wondering about the agent's answer, because it is contrary to what I have heard about who you could sell a C&R gun to . I thought you could sell it to any one as long as local and Federal laws were followed. As long as you weren't making a business out of it.
Any thoughts/ new info?
Jlr2267
Member
That agent was wrong. You can sell to anyone not otherwise prohibited, just as you can any other firearm.
tark
Member
That's what I have always been told. I sure hope it is a wrong answer, because I have sold a couple to non- C&R holders!!
Red Wind
Member
I've sold 5 guns to out of state FFL 03 holders with no problems. One was in Illinois. Just get the required license #,name,address, etc. and a piece of photo ID such as the DL or passport. Then have the info faxed, scanned or mailed to you, and enter the transaction in your bound book before shipping.
This was over a period of 9 years. You just have to be careful not to go overboard on the selling end.
This was over a period of 9 years. You just have to be careful not to go overboard on the selling end.
jonnyc
Member
I don't get just the info, I get a signed copy of the FFL......whether 01 or 03.
stonecutter2
Member
I always provided a signed copy in red ink, so it was obviously actually signed not all photocopied.
deadin
Member
Only if they are from your State. Otherwise they will need a FFL (either a dealer or C&R)
Yes, you can be put in jail for selling firearms too often or too many and much of what the government cited as a rationale below to convict this guy could also apply to C&R licensees.
See John Shipley, convict, former FBI special agent
https://www.fbi.gov/elpaso/press-releases/2010/ep082410.htm
Here is his attorney's website http://www.freejohnshipley.com/facts.php
Appellate brief for Shipley here http://www.freejohnshipley.com/images/USA Vs Shipley Dec 2011.pdf
See John Shipley, convict, former FBI special agent
https://www.fbi.gov/elpaso/press-releases/2010/ep082410.htm
Here is his attorney's website http://www.freejohnshipley.com/facts.php
Appellate brief for Shipley here http://www.freejohnshipley.com/images/USA Vs Shipley Dec 2011.pdf
If the issue is dealing in firearms, having an FFL03 is irrelevant. As the ATF has said:giggitygiggity said:
See also the applicable regulation at 27 CFR 478.41(d), emphasis added:
So any prosecution of dealing in firearms without a license will be based on the same factors whether or not one has an FFL03. And there have been plenty of successful prosecutions of persons for illegally dealing in firearms without a license.
Because of the way in which the applicable law defines a dealer in firearms, it is not clear when someone who believes himself to be a hobbyist firearms collector, or is otherwise engaged in what he believes to be routine gun trading, is engaging in the business of being a dealer and thereby risks federal prosecution for being an unlicensed gun dealer. There is no clear "bright line" test, so it's difficult for someone to know if or when he has crossed the line.
This has been the subject of an extensive discussion here. See this thread: What is "Dealing in Firearms Without a License?" . Note especially posts --
What having an FFL03 means in that regard is exactly nothing. If you are engaging in conduct for which the federal prosecutor thinks he can get you indicted and convicted, you will be prosecuted.giggitygiggity said:
How would you know?giggitygiggity said:
Perhaps the jury at your trial.giggitygiggity said:
An FFL03 is irrelevant, so the case law I cited would be applicable.giggitygiggity said:
And that is simply not true. There have been successful prosecutions for dealing without a license.giggitygiggity said:
Not necessarily.3212 said:
First, it will be a question of state law. While the laws of most States require no formalities when firearms are transferred between residents, some do regulate private sales.
Second, under federal law you can not transfer a gun without an FFL to anyone who you know or have reasonable cause to believe is not a resident of your State, or to anyone ever who you know or have reasonable cause to believe is prohibited under 18 USC 922(g) from possessing a gun.
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