C&R legal question

Status
Not open for further replies.
K

Konstantin835

Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2010
Messages
168
Location
Upstate NY
I am wondering about what is possibly a fine line legally considering a C&R License and "straw purchases". Both my Dad and I are history buffs but I am definitely more into historical firearms than he is. My question is if I convinced my dad to get a C&R License would it be considered a straw purchase if some of the guns would possibly one day be gifted to me. I am 15 so I can not get my own C&R but I will be 16 in a few days so I could legally own a rifle that has been gifted to me. They may eventually be gifted to me when I go to college or after that. Would what I am describing be a straw purchase or would it be fine. I would not be the owner of the guns for some time and my Dad, the possible C&R license holder does have an interest in historical firearms but I wan't to be careful and ask first.
 
A gift is not a straw purchase. It is a gift. A gift is a firearm purchased with a person's own money and then given to another person with no compensation in return.

You would have to remain residents of the same state in order for the gift to be legal without an FFL transfer.

As far as using the C&R FFL in order to purchase gifts.... I am not sure of the legality of that.
 
its only illegal if he makes a purchase for you with your money........or if he buys it with the intent to sell it to you......

if he buys it as a gift, or if he buys it....and sometime later on decides he doesnt like it and wants to give it/ sell it to you......thats perfectly fine.
 
Technically the purpose of the C&R license is to enable a collector to acquire C&R firearms for his/her personal collection, not to give away as "gifts".:uhoh:
 
Technically the purpose of the C&R license is to enable a collector to acquire C&R firearms for his/her personal collection, not to give away as "gifts
Click to expand...
Technically,this is true. There is, however, no law requiring a collector to keep anything he buys with the license if he chooses not to keep it.
 
As long as the disposition is recorded in the book and the C&R holder is not engaging in business for profit. There should be no problem at all.

If the C&R expires then all items acquired under that license are no longer bound by the limitations of a C&R ffl holder.
 
There is no straw purchase between family members like father and son.

A straw purchase is when someone, who does not ever intend to own the weapon purchased himself, buys a weapon, for someone (unrelated) else, with that other persons money.

I have purchased handguns for my wife, with my wife present at the LGS, while the three of us (the FFL, my wife and myself) discussed the potential purchase. I paid for the handgun, out of my pocket, and my wife walked out of the store with the cased handgun.

That is not a straw purchase, It was purchased as a Mothers day gift, it was given as a gift, and there is no-one that can tell me I cannot purchase anything legal that I can afford for a family member, as a gift.

The whole straw purchase idea is to keep people that would not qualify to purchase on their own, from using someone else to obtain a weapon.

If your dad obtains a C&R and buys collectable weapons, and when you are old enough to legally own them, gives them all to you, that is not a straw purchase.
 
^^^^
while you may gift a gun, you can't buy it on the behalf of, or FOR, another person
and yeah, it may seem like splitting hairs, but the ATF loves to do that.
 
What makes a "straw purchase" illegal is lying on the Form 4473 (the part that asks if you are the real purchaser). Since there is no Form 4473 for C & R purchases, a C & R purchase couldn't possibly be a straw purchase (in the legal sense).

This doesn't necessarily mean that it's OK for someone with a C & R license to buy a gun for someone else (either as a gift or as a straw purchase). As others have noted, the point of a C & R license is to allow collectors to avoid some paperwork hassles when adding to their collections. If a C & R license holder is buying a gun intended for someone else, it's plainly not the kind of thing the license was intended for. Whether there is a specific statute or regulation prohibiting this, I don't know. If someone does know, please tell us. But discussions of the laws generally about straw purchases or gifts are not relevant to this question.
 
Thanks for the ATF link, it cleared up a few things but if a more recent one is available I would appreciate it, I can't seem to find one myself though. The purchases would not be with my money and the guns would not be mine although its possible some of them could be gifted after college or some time in the future. Although my dad would probably not get a C&R license without some prodding from myself but he does have an interest in historical firearms and they would belong to him so it seems to me that its perfectly legal.
 
Last edited:
hermannr,

In regards to a straw purchase:

1. Whether or not the two parties are related to each other has NO BEARING on whether a straw purchase has occurred or not.

2. Whether or not the final recipient of the gun is legal to own, possess and buy that gun themselves has NO BEARING on whether a straw purchase has occurred or not.

Source:
Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

Page 165. I would suggest you read the entire straw purchase section.

In some instances,
a straw purchaser is used because
the actual purchaser is prohibited
from acquiring the firearm. That is to
say, the actual purchaser is a felon or is
within one of the other prohibited categories
of persons who may not lawfully
acquire firearms or is a resident of a
State other than that in which the licensee's
business premises is located.
Because of his or her disability, the person
uses a straw purchaser who is not
prohibited from purchasing a firearm
from the licensee. In other instances,
neither the straw purchaser nor the actual
purchaser is prohibited from acquiring
the firearm.
Click to expand...

It is immaterial
that the actual purchaser and the straw
purchaser are residents of the State in
which the licensee's business premises
is located, are not prohibited from receiving
or possessing firearms, and
could have lawfully purchased firearms
from the licensee.
Click to expand...

The Federal law makes NO exception for family members, and the Federal has NO requirement that the final recipient be a prohibited person for a straw purchase to occur.

As you also stated, GIFTS are NOT straw purchases. GIFTS are GIFTS. I too have taken my wife to a gun store and let her pick out a gun as a GIFT, paid for it with my own money, I filled out the 4473, I got the NICS check, and I gave the gun to her as a GIFT.

Now, if my wife gave me her money, and sent me to the gun store to buy a gun on her behalf, with her money, that WOULD be a straw purchase, regardless of the fact that she is my wife and perfectly legal to buy a gun for herself.
 
Konstantin835,

You might want to look at page 46 of the same document:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

(d) The collector license provided by
this part shall apply only to transactions
related to a collector's activity in acquiring,
holding or disposing of curios and relics. A
collector's license does not authorize the
collector to engage in a business required
to be licensed under the Act or this part.
Therefore, if the acquisitions and dispositions
of curios and relics by a collector
bring the collector within the definition of a
manufacturer, importer, or dealer under
this part, he shall qualify as such. (See
also § 478.93 of this part.)
Click to expand...

I don't see where obtaining C&R firearms with the license and then giving them away as gifts would be illegal. I can give firearms away as gifts all day long without needing a dealer's license. However, the C&R license would not allow the person to give/transfer any firearm to a private party resident of a different state.

Also, it seems like on page 48, the action is specifically allowed:

§ 478.50 Locations covered by license.
The license covers the class of business
or the activity specified in the license
at the address specified therein. A separate
license must be obtained for each
location at which a firearms or ammunition
business or activity requiring a license
under this part is conducted except:
(a) No license is required to cover a
separate warehouse used by the licensee
solely for storage of firearms or ammunition
if the records required by this part are
maintained at the licensed premises
served by such warehouse;

(b) A licensed collector may acquire
curios and relics at any location, and dispose
of curios or relics to any licensee or
to other persons who are residents of the
State where the collector's license is held
and the disposition is made;
Click to expand...

I think that ^^^^ is the final answer that specifically says, yes, your dad can GIFT you guns obtained with a C&R license, so long as you are residents of the same state.
 
Hej NavyLT, I think a C&R can transfer to another C&R in another state without a FFL...No?

Remember, as I have stated before, I am on dialup so I cannot research as well (easily) as you can
 
hermannr Hej NavyLT, I think a C&R can transfer to another C&R in another state without a FFL...No?

Remember, as I have stated before, I am on dialup so I cannot research as well (easily) as you can
Click to expand...
A C&R IS an FFL........an 03FFL.

The 03FFL "Collector of Curios & Relics" allows the licensee to receive C&R eligible firearms from anyone (licensee/nonlicensee) and can ship interstate to anyone with an FFL (01,03 or 07)
 
I do not have the reference at hand to give the chapter and verse, but the seasoning period for a C&R purchase if distributed to a non-FFL is one year. After that time period, all the 03 FFL holder has to do is log in the bound book the personal information of the person who is receiving/buying the firearm. I'll answer the next question - the one year period is not applicable if distribution is to another FFL. The statute is in place to keep C&R holders from buying and selling quickly since it is a collector's license, not a business license.
 
cougar1717 I do not have the reference at hand to give the chapter and verse, but the seasoning period for a C&R purchase if distributed to a non-FFL is one year. After that time period, all the 03 FFL holder has to do is log in the bound book the personal information of the person who is receiving/buying the firearm. I'll answer the next question - the one year period is not applicable if distribution is to another FFL. The statute is in place to keep C&R holders from buying and selling quickly since it is a collector's license, not a business license.
Click to expand...
No such law or ATF regulation.
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-11/atf-p-5300-11.pdf
 
cougar1717 said:
I do not have the reference at hand to give the chapter and verse, but the seasoning period for a C&R purchase if distributed to a non-FFL is one year. After that time period, all the 03 FFL holder has to do is log in the bound book the personal information of the person who is receiving/buying the firearm. I'll answer the next question - the one year period is not applicable if distribution is to another FFL. The statute is in place to keep C&R holders from buying and selling quickly since it is a collector's license, not a business license.
Click to expand...

The statute you are referring to is 18 USC 923(c):

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/718/usc_sec_18_00000923----000-.html

(c) Upon the filing of a proper application and payment of the prescribed fee, the Attorney General shall issue to a qualified applicant the appropriate license which, subject to the provisions of this chapter and other applicable provisions of law, shall entitle the licensee to transport, ship, and receive firearms and ammunition covered by such license in interstate or foreign commerce during the period stated in the license. Nothing in this chapter shall be construed to prohibit a licensed manufacturer, importer, or dealer from maintaining and disposing of a personal collection of firearms, subject only to such restrictions as apply in this chapter to dispositions by a person other than a licensed manufacturer, importer, or dealer. If any firearm is so disposed of by a licensee within one year after its transfer from his business inventory into such licensee’s personal collection or if such disposition or any other acquisition is made for the purpose of willfully evading the restrictions placed upon licensees by this chapter, then such firearm shall be deemed part of such licensee’s business inventory, except that any licensed manufacturer, importer, or dealer who has maintained a firearm as part of a personal collection for one year and who sells or otherwise disposes of such firearm shall record the description of the firearm in a bound volume, containing the name and place of residence and date of birth of the transferee if the transferee is an individual, or the identity and principal and local places of business of the transferee if the transferee is a corporation or other business entity: Provided, That no other recordkeeping shall be required.
Click to expand...

The one year requirement does NOT apply to C&R License holders because they are not a licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer. They are a licensed collector. In addition, licensed collectors are prohibited from maintaining a business inventory, because in order to engage in firearms business they would be required to be a licensed dealer. A licensed collector may ONLY have a personal collection. When they receive a firearm acquired via their C&R license, that firearm immediately becomes part of their personal collection and they may dispose of that firearm in any legal manner (to an FFL anywhere or to a private party in the same state) so long as their repeated disposal of firearms to others does not cause them to become engaged in a business of dealing in firearms.

In addition, on page 10 of:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-15.pdf

Licensed Collectors
Licensed collectors may buy curio or relic firearms from any source and dispose of curio or relic firearms to another licensee anywhere. As a licensed collector, you may dispose of and receive curio or relic firearms to non-licensed residents of your State.
You must maintain A&D records. Your collector’s license entitles you to conduct transactions in curios and relics only. A licensed collector has the same status as a non-licensee in any transaction involving firearms other than curios and relics. ATF Form 4473 is not required for curio and relic transactions.

A curio or relic license does not entitle the holder to engage in the business of dealing in firearms, including dealing in curio or relic firearms.
Click to expand...

Notice there is no one year holding requirement.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

A
  • Locked
C&R Follow-up Question
Replies
22
Views
805
Walt Sherrill
W
courtgreene
  • Locked
C&R Legal question
Replies
19
Views
2K
gibson_es
G
T
  • Locked
CA C&R handgun question
Replies
3
Views
475
tube_ee
T
S
  • Locked
Transfer of firearm as a gift
Replies
0
Views
317
#shooter
S
G
  • Locked
Couple of C&R questions...
Replies
5
Views
710
dogtown tom
dogtown tom
Back
Top